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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16883
Location: sticksville, ct.
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 Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:30 pm Post subject: Re: Need Your Help- Underbelly Radiator Design |
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| captincanuck wrote: |
| Couldn't help but notice the ad says "3 aluminum radiators". Maybe after all the added holes and ears it still wasn't cooling adequately so they added a under belly rad? |
could be...talk about a waste of money. 1 healthy custom one is keeping mine cool under the bus.
thanks to everyone who p/m'd me. now, someone get on it and find me a bus. I have a shipper I use that does the new england to florida run, and can get a semi decent deal on getting a bus shipped.
the thing is, I am closing in rapidly on fall, so any real testing would really need to be done come spring/summer of next year. proof of concept would be able to run around now, but I would like to put the coals to it come july/august
by then, my camper should be subarooed and air conditioned 
in the meantime, my underbelly setup will continue to serve as the go to solution as it has proven itself time and time again
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Need Your Help- Underbelly Radiator Design |
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Posted this in my build thread, but it is relevant in this one.
| Quote: |
I reinstalled the old, 4-inch deep scoop last night and drove it today. To my surprise, when I was driving this afternoon in warmer weather, I was seeing temps up to 211 or so. I fully expected that with the large scoop, I'd see the temp vascillate between the open and closing temps of the thermostat, which seem to be 199 and 205.
I had no problems last year under similar (and somewhat hotter) conditions
The only thing I can think of that is really different to last September when I originally built that scoop is the thermostat. I don't recall for sure what was in there then. The current one is an OEM one from an online vendor. But I did drill a tiny hole in it with an eye toward easier air bleeding. I wonder if that is somehow messing with it's operation and making it raise the temps a little? I dunno. |
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Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing |
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reithi
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2013
Posts: 30
Location: Kenya
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: Need Your Help- Underbelly Radiator Design |
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It's been a while due to a heavy work schedule out of town over the last 3 weeks.
However, I have been keeping busy in the evenings at the hotel. One of the issues I have been working hard is to balance the 3" thick radiator and maintain 9" ground clearance at the minimum. A flat design could also work with a maximum scoop height of 3".
Anyway, here are the designs options I am considering.
Option 1 - 8 degrees tilt (Lots of clearance above the fan)
Option 2 - 5 degrees tilt (Realisitic with little margin of error above the fan)
Both options have the same volume (sort of) though I am not sure it really matters.
I am inclined to go for option 2. What are your thoughts?
Last edited by reithi on Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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reithi
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2013
Posts: 30
Location: Kenya
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| Posted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 2:48 pm Post subject: Re: Need Your Help- Underbelly Radiator Design |
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| vwwestyman wrote: |
| Are those rectangles coming off the radiator your hose connections? |
Yes, they are radiator hose connections. |
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Ives676
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2013
Posts: 274
Location: Rogers, AR
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 7:46 am Post subject: Re: Need Your Help- Underbelly Radiator Design |
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Can the people who have done this conversion chime in on radiator cost and labor cost involved.
1. Cost of buying off the shelf radiator and cost of welding new in/out locations
vs
2. Cost of buying a custom radiator with preferred in/out locations
_________________
1974 Riviera - Subaru EJ22
Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630031 |
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captincanuck
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2014
Posts: 730
Location: The Great White North
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:07 am Post subject: Re: Need Your Help- Underbelly Radiator Design |
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| Ives676 wrote: |
Can the people who have done this conversion chime in on radiator cost and labor cost involved.
1. Cost of buying off the shelf radiator and cost of welding new in/out locations
vs
2. Cost of buying a custom radiator with preferred in/out locations |
My 2 row aluminum rad cost $160US and it cost me $75US ($100 CDN) to have the inlet/outlets relocated.
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1979 Westfalia "FireFly" Subaru 2.2 with Subaru gears 5spd.
Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=634777&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0 |
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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Ives676
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2013
Posts: 274
Location: Rogers, AR
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: Need Your Help- Underbelly Radiator Design |
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Do you guys think that there is much efficiency loss by changing the inlet and outlets of an off the shelf radiator. Or enough efficiency loss to matter?
And thank you for your feedback! 
_________________
1974 Riviera - Subaru EJ22
Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630031 |
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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Ives676
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2013
Posts: 274
Location: Rogers, AR
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| Posted: Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Need Your Help- Underbelly Radiator Design |
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I didn't know if changing from a right angle entrance and exit to a straight entrance and exit would change the flow of coolant enough to add or reduce any efficiency.
Or......
Is the radiator engineered in a way that changing the flow inlet/outlet could slow down or speed up the the flow at which coolant enters and leaves the radiator when you weld up the factory holes and add new ones.
Geez, confusing enough of a question?
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1974 Riviera - Subaru EJ22
Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=630031 |
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reithi
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2013
Posts: 30
Location: Kenya
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| Posted: Wed Oct 12, 2016 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Need Your Help- Underbelly Radiator Design |
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Most conventional radiators are designed to be mounted vertically with engine right behind which explains the inlet/outlet positions.
For the bus, the radiator is mounted in an unconventional horizontal position resulting in inlet/outlet facing up where space is at a premium.
Relocating the inlet/outlet solves the problem by pointing them towards the engine at the back.
As far as coolant flow efficiency is concerned, there will be a little to no difference as long as the relocated inlet/outlet remain diagonally positioned in a downflow radiator. |
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reithi
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2013
Posts: 30
Location: Kenya
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Need Your Help- Underbelly Radiator Design |
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Having dragged you into radiator scoop design, its only fair to share the end product.
I chose to go for the tried and tested design that has worked for many. Its made of 14 gauge stainless steel sheet and TIG welded. To maximise cooling effectiveness and minimise risk of air recirculation, the scoop is airtight. The fan shroud has been added but final decision is out with the jury until I take a test drive. Initial air suction testing simulating a stationary vehicle has been great.
Now onto the obligatory photos 
I will probably install it in the car later this week.
Thanks to all that chipped in with their thoughts particularly Dave aka VWWestyman for all the support as well as Skills and Webwalker aka Volksaru for the invaluable advice and build logs that have shaped the final design.
Last edited by reithi on Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:09 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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captincanuck
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2014
Posts: 730
Location: The Great White North
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thebusandus
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2014
Posts: 412
Location: Alaska
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| Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: Need Your Help- Underbelly Radiator Design |
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I think that design would be more efficient when the fan is on. I don't think these radiators get much airflow underneath, at least mine doesn't. I would think the built in shroud would make the fan so much more efficient you could run the fan more often but worry less about overheating.
I am interested to see how it compares next summer.
Good work !
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2.2 Suby powered - 75 Westy - Rita
Panamerican Highway - 2014-2017 |
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reithi
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2013
Posts: 30
Location: Kenya
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:15 am Post subject: Re: Need Your Help- Underbelly Radiator Design |
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| vwwestyman wrote: |
Oh stop it! You're making me blush. 
Ha ha
Looks very nice. I wish I had the gear to build something that pretty. |
Thanks Dave
This looks like a winner from the tests I have done so far. I would never have done it right without help.
I don't have the tools to build the scoop either. I designed it on paper, bought stainless steel sheet and bolts, walked into a shop that cuts, bends and welds stainless steel. I drew up the cut and bend lines on the sheet......and voila I had scoop. Total cost for materials, cutting, bending and welding was $200. |
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reithi
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2013
Posts: 30
Location: Kenya
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:33 am Post subject: Re: Need Your Help- Underbelly Radiator Design |
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| captincanuck wrote: |
So you aren't worried about reducing the surface area of your rad by sealing it up that tight? Looks mighty nice thou.  Will be interested to see how it performs |
Thanks Captincanuck.
Good question. Shroud or no shroud? Tough question. When the bus is moving the shroud with limit airflow. Without the shroud, the fan will have to work harder in traffic.
The plan is to fit it on the bus and see how it performs. If it doesn't work out, I will remove it. I guess since the scoop is airtight, it won't make a big difference. |
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reithi
Samba Member
Joined: March 05, 2013
Posts: 30
Location: Kenya
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 2:42 am Post subject: Re: Need Your Help- Underbelly Radiator Design |
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| thebusandus wrote: |
I think that design would be more efficient when the fan is on. I don't think these radiators get much airflow underneath, at least mine doesn't. I would think the built in shroud would make the fan so much more efficient you could run the fan more often but worry less about overheating.
I am interested to see how it compares next summer.
Good work ! |
Thanks Thebusandus.
Its a trade off. The idea is to maximise fan efficiency but at the expense of reduced radiator surface area.
A test drive in the crazy hills where I live will be the ultimate test. |
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vwwestyman
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2004
Posts: 5688
Location: Manhattan, Kansas, USA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 5:51 am Post subject: Re: Need Your Help- Underbelly Radiator Design |
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When I had a chance to drive my Bus on hot days, I found that with my scoop the fan didn't seem to add much of anything while driving. And when sitting there, my fan was able to pull enough air through the radiator without a shroud to keep the engine cool.
I don't know if your shroud will block enough to make it less efficient when driving, but I don't think it is necessarily necessary.
_________________
Dave Cook
President, Wild Westerner Club
1978 Champagne Edition Westy, repowered to '97 Jetta TDI
1973 Wild Westerner
My Thing |
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