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Another poor sap with Bus fever
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KentABQ Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever Reply with quote

As an aside, this problem reminds me of one encountered when I worked in Flight Test at Boeing...

One FAA test required for certification of all newly developed jet engines is the dead chicken cannon test. The engine is revved to max, and a dead chicken is shot out of an air-driven cannon into the blades of the engine. If blades slice and dice the chicken and no damage occurs, it passes.

Rolls-Royce was developing an engine in the '80's for the 767 (I think), but couldn't get it to pass the chicken test without catastrophic damage. Finally, RR paid Boeing huge bucks to fly a Flight Test engineer to observe the test and tell what they can do to fix the problem.

The engineer showed up, observed the test apparatus, and made one change to the test procedure: "Defrost chicken before launch." Lol! Laughing
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-Kent-
1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"

"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!"
---WildIdea

Bus ownership via emoticons:
Very Happy Shocked Mad Sad Embarassed d'oh! Pray Brick wall Pray Dancing Dancing Dancing ---williamM
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever Reply with quote

Yeah I know, just yanking your chain, Russian meddling perhaps? or maybe rushing meddling?

Lets link Colins DR thread here so others following along can understand what all these terminal numbers do: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=334340
And a pictographic explanation of the system too.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So far all the ingredients are present for sucessful completion of the running recipe, unless 85 isn't grounding, or the system voltage is so far off the charts that the DR's are failing, got a volt meter?
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 5:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever Reply with quote

Test the resistance across each of the relays' load terminals while you apply 12 volts acrosd the triggers. I wonder if the contacts in the relay aren't clean and are not passing enough current to drive the pump
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Yeah I know, just yanking your chain, Russian meddling perhaps? or maybe rushing meddling?

Lets link Colins DR thread here so others following along can understand what all these terminal numbers do: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=334340
And a pictographic explanation of the system too.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So far all the ingredients are present for sucessful completion of the running recipe, unless 85 isn't grounding, or the system voltage is so far off the charts that the DR's are failing, got a volt meter?


Yes, I have a volt meter. And I wish I were better at troubleshooting, so this process is good. Sorry to drag you into it, though... Maybe the process will trigger something in my brain, and I'll get better at it? Well, I'm posting while having a Manhattan, so it's probably triggering the wrong part of my brain right now. But I'll test again in the morning... Smile
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1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"

"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!"
---WildIdea

Bus ownership via emoticons:
Very Happy Shocked Mad Sad Embarassed d'oh! Pray Brick wall Pray Dancing Dancing Dancing ---williamM
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever Reply with quote

The patented asiab3 brain-triggering mechanism:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Current brainwave: how could the ground path carry enough current to ground the fuel pump but not ground the relay? Result: ground is fine.

RobbieOnTheGoodBeach
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
Test the resistance across each of the relays' load terminals while you apply 12 volts acrosd the triggers. I wonder if the contacts in the relay aren't clean and are not passing enough current to drive the pump

I'll check this out in the morning. But Herr Robbie had me clean each terminal until it was shiny on all the FI equipment before it was installed. That doesn't mean there isn't a connection problem, though. I'm guessing it's something like that somewhere in the maze of FI parts. It's only a matter of time til it's found.
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1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"

"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!"
---WildIdea

Bus ownership via emoticons:
Very Happy Shocked Mad Sad Embarassed d'oh! Pray Brick wall Pray Dancing Dancing Dancing ---williamM
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever Reply with quote

The relay has an internal connection that is made and broken as voltage is put across the 85/86 trigger terminals

That's the one I think may have gone bad.

The mystery of electrical stuff is vanquished by Excalibur, the sword of logic.

You start AT the non-working load, confirm the load item is good, then work backwards to find where the voltage stops
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever Reply with quote

asiab3 wrote:
The patented asiab3 brain-triggering mechanism:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Current brainwave: how could the ground path carry enough current to ground the fuel pump but not ground the relay? Result: ground is fine.

RobbieOnTheGoodBeach

Answer: Close the books, and open the wine. Wink
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-Kent-
1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"

"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!"
---WildIdea

Bus ownership via emoticons:
Very Happy Shocked Mad Sad Embarassed d'oh! Pray Brick wall Pray Dancing Dancing Dancing ---williamM
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever Reply with quote

The sun is up, and I've been playing around at troubleshooting the fuel pump/double relay problem. Abscate made sense when telling how to start at the end and work backwards. And it seems that 88d on the DR is the break in the circuit, but a new DR didn't solve the problem.

So I started from the beginning, and double checked all the electrical checks in the AFC...
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

(Sorry.... don't know why it's sideways.)
All the reading from this morning are listed to the right. But I got stumped at the one that says "34 at control unit and 37 at the double relay". There isn't a 37 on the DR, and even the ECU plug only goes up to 35.

Am I missing something obvious again?

(Battery is at 12.4v, so I stuck the trickle charger on it before doing the rest of the voltage checks. And I have to work a few hours today, so I'll check back later this afternoon.)
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-Kent-
1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"

"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!"
---WildIdea

Bus ownership via emoticons:
Very Happy Shocked Mad Sad Embarassed d'oh! Pray Brick wall Pray Dancing Dancing Dancing ---williamM
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:49 am    Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever Reply with quote

[quote="KentPS"]Baby steps... Getting there a little at a time. Cool

I had to work today, which cut into my fun getting the van running. I'm in a race with CarlosZ to see who gets theirs running first. (Although he is running a marathon, compared to the 100 yard dash I've been doing.)


Looks like you're pulling ahead with your ringer (Robbie)! I've mismanaged my procurement of parts. First it was the cooling flaps, now I'm waiting on a last minute Dakota digital cht in the mail. So many last minute epiphanies about how much easier it would be to install certain parts with the engine out. But there is hope... as I might catch you due to your electrical gremlin.

Your conversion to FI looks sweet! Chloe should be happy once she can leave the PUD and taste some public roads. Maybe I'll give you guys a hand with your van once I get my bus (not named yet) running?
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 9:58 am    Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever Reply with quote

Ok.
If you manually power up term 88d (at the DR) the fuel pump should run. This is a very simple method to verify the circuit from the DR connection to the pump, the pump itself, and the pump's ground are all operable. If the pump doesn't run then this circuit needs to be addressed.

Recognize for 88d to receive 12v many other things need to happen or function.
1- 85 has to have a constant ground.
2- 88z and 88y have to have 12v all the time.
3- 86c has to have 12v when key is on. The DR must click.
4- 86b has to have 12v when the AFM flap is opened.
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever Reply with quote

rockerarm wrote:
Recognize for 88d to receive 12v many other things need to happen or function.
1- 85 has to have a constant ground.
2- 88z and 88y have to have 12v all the time.
3- 86c has to have 12v when key is on. The DR must click.
4- 86b has to have 12v when the AFM flap is opened.


Thanks! This is the type of info I can understand and follow. Very Happy

Yes, the pump works with a jumper between 88d and coil+. That's how Robbie was able to get it to start on Monday.

1- Yes, we have a good ground. It's even jumped back to the battery- just to make sure.
2- Yes, both have 12v.
3- Hmm. The DR clicks when the key is on, but I can't read 12v at 86c.
But Robbie was able to get 12v when he was here on Monday, so maybe I'm doing something wrong. I put a jumper wire into the 86c connection, plugged the DR back in, and measured between the jumper and ground. It read something like 5mV.
4- Yes, 12v when flap is open.

So either I'm doing something wrong when measuring 86c, or that is a possible cause of the problem. Question

Edit: Yup, I was measuring at the wrong connection. There is 12v at 86c.
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1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"

"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!"
---WildIdea

Bus ownership via emoticons:
Very Happy Shocked Mad Sad Embarassed d'oh! Pray Brick wall Pray Dancing Dancing Dancing ---williamM
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever Reply with quote

Okay.... I have NO idea why... but I tried plugging the new DR in again.
And it WORKED! The fuel pump came on when the key was on and the AFM flap was pushed.

Possibly the gremlin was fixed by all the removing and replacing of connections which loosened up enough surface corrosion to allow the right amount of current to go through. Or I'm full of BS...

But the best part is that it WORKED! Thanks for everyone's input in troubleshooting this PITA. Applause
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1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"

"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!"
---WildIdea

Bus ownership via emoticons:
Very Happy Shocked Mad Sad Embarassed d'oh! Pray Brick wall Pray Dancing Dancing Dancing ---williamM
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever Reply with quote

While it may go down as mysterious corrosion that fixed itself, make sure the connections in the double relay plugs are indeed seated both in the plug and into the relay, especially the left plug which **suprise surprise** connects power and the fuel pump to the system.

I had one push out long ago and that was frustrating troubleshooting indeed.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:23 am    Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever Reply with quote

I confirmed all the pins were fully inserted into both sides of the double relay connection...

What I'm wondering now, is maybe the ground connector (85) was just dirty, and repeated reinsertion cleaned it up enough to function?

Kent, remember how we carefully push/pulled the connectors out of the resistor pack plug for cleaning? We should have done that on the DR plug. I think you should do it now! (And check the old DR after!!)

Maybe I won't quit these cars.
Robbie
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever Reply with quote

asiab3 wrote:
I confirmed all the pins were fully inserted into both sides of the double relay connection...

What I'm wondering now, is maybe the ground connector (85) was just dirty, and repeated reinsertion cleaned it up enough to function?

Kent, remember how we carefully push/pulled the connectors out of the resistor pack plug for cleaning? We should have done that on the DR plug. I think you should do it now! (And check the old DR after!!)

Maybe I won't quit these cars.
Robbie

Yup, don't quit your day job.
Oops...too late. Wink

I had cleaned all the male connectors on the old DR, but didn't know how to clean the female ones in the DR plug. All the plugging and unplugging may have been the solution? OY! Brick wall

Wanderglobe arrives back in Palm Springs today to pick up his hightop bus, Danté. I'm going to miss having the big old orange hippo around. Wanderglobe will be heading down to Baja for a couple months, so maybe he'll run into Big Emma along the way.
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1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"

"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!"
---WildIdea

Bus ownership via emoticons:
Very Happy Shocked Mad Sad Embarassed d'oh! Pray Brick wall Pray Dancing Dancing Dancing ---williamM
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2017 11:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever Reply with quote

She's alive!

I blocked off the EGR, connected the TSII, charged the battery and started her up this afternoon. She started on the first crank and idled well, so we went on a test drive. Man, she ran very well. The idle RPM need to be set lower, but other than that, it was a great test. It amazed me how a 1.7l engine could run that strong for such a heavy vehicle.

On Thursday, the EGR filter is getting an extension tube welded to it (too short to reach the exhaust), and weld on the tail pipe (mounting studs are broken), and then it's off to try my luck at a smog pre-test.

It's a good feeling to have the results of the last 5 months' efforts pay off. And Robbie suggests I buy a bunch of lottery tickets if she passes smog the first time. Cool$$$
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1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"

"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!"
---WildIdea

Bus ownership via emoticons:
Very Happy Shocked Mad Sad Embarassed d'oh! Pray Brick wall Pray Dancing Dancing Dancing ---williamM
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever Reply with quote

Okay, with every giant milestone, such as getting the van running, there are bound to be a couple hiccups. I've found a couple that I'll need to work through.

First, it appears my fuel level sender repair didn't do the trick. After rewinding the wire around the unit, I tested the resistance, and it showed almost the correct reading when the float was raised and lowered. Buuuuuuut, the fuel guage is reading empty, although I've put about 3 gallons in the tank so far. One repair scored an 'F'. (Maybe the connection pulled off the sending unit after I installed the tank? Hope so.)

Second, and this doesn't have anything to do with the work I did, it is incredibly difficult to put fuel in the tank. (I don't remember having a tough time 30 years ago when I filled Boomer. Or is it an aging brain that doesn't remember that?)
I've tried rotating the filler nozzle to fill from every direction. The only way I could get gas in the tank without part of it running down the side of the van was to fill a gas can and transfer it into the tank. So I may have to try Robbie's trick of taking a screwdriver with me to the gas station, loosening the rubber boot around the filler nozzle and rotating it 180*. I'm willing to try anything to keep from having to fill the tank via a gas can.

[Edit: I'm thinking of bringing a hose to the gas station that snugly fits around the end of the nozzle. It will be long enough to get fuel past the first 90* turn on the inlet, and will make it down to the tank without back flushing down the side of the van. And it will allow air to escape the tank as the fuel is going in. Has anyone tried this yet? Of course, the danger is the hose slipping off, getting caught in the fuel inlet line, and making it even more difficult to fill in the future. Rolling Eyes ]

But overall, the engine refresh and Carb-to-FI swap has gone better than I expected. Of course, that optimism may be short-lived, as I'm hoping to make it to the smog test tomorrow afternoon... Boo hoo!
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1976 Riviera, 1.8l FI chrome yellow VAN - "Chloe"

"I must say, how can you be in a bad mood driving this vehicle full of vibrant color.
Cars of today are so bland in comparison. It's like driving a celebration!"
---WildIdea

Bus ownership via emoticons:
Very Happy Shocked Mad Sad Embarassed d'oh! Pray Brick wall Pray Dancing Dancing Dancing ---williamM


Last edited by KentABQ on Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:45 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever Reply with quote

Wishing you good luck at the smog test tomorrow Kent!
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Another poor sap with Bus fever Reply with quote

KentPS wrote:
First, it appears my fuel level sender repair didn't do the trick. After rewinding the wire around the unit, I tested the resistance, and it showed almost the correct reading when the float was raised and lowered. Buuuuuuut, the fuel guage is reading empty, although I've put about 3 gallons in the tank so far. One repair scored an 'F'. (Maybe the connection pulled off the sending unit after I installed the tank? Hope so.)


Perhaps fill the tank and see what it reads. 3 gallons is an acceptable reserve, but any more and you might go crazy.


Quote:
Second, and this doesn't have anything to do with the work I did, it is incredibly difficult to put fuel in the tank. (I don't remember having a tough time 30 years ago when I filled Boomer. Or is it an aging brain that doesn't remember that?)


So on BB, my old '76, I had to manually pull the vapor recovery boot back with my free hand while just leaving an inch or so of nozzle in the filler, pointed down and to the front of the car. The stations with accordion-boot vapor recovery nozzles make this more difficult. The stations with the "single-circle" recovery flaps are easier. Towards the end of my ownership, I got to know which stations had which boot from Los Angeles to San Diego. Cool

Boomer had it easy, but it also had a gas flap that would get smashed by the slider door…

Trade-offs, you know…
Robbie
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