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Is Zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 motor
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Floridaman!
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 6:00 am    Post subject: Is Zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 motor Reply with quote

Just a gee whizz question is zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 engine. What is the result if it runs with 0 endplay.

And where can I get a .005, .006, or .007 shim? seems most shims are larger
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bsairhead
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 6:19 am    Post subject: Re: Is Zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 motor Reply with quote

0 like no end play? Curios how long it might run until it warms up enough to seize?
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Floridaman!
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 6:24 am    Post subject: Re: Is Zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 motor Reply with quote

So I guess its a bad thing --- restricts oil I guess? Glad I asked Smile

Now I just gotta find where I can find a .006 shim. Seems simple but we shall see. Any recommendations?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 6:54 am    Post subject: Re: Is Zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 motor Reply with quote

There’s got to be some. How much is often debated. But definitely not 00. Measure with a dial indicator at the crank snout. Feeler gauge method is inaccurate and the flywheel can flex.
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bsairhead
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: Is Zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 motor Reply with quote

You don't need shims with no end play. You need to have the flywheel snout surface ground. Find 3 shims take your flywheel to your local shop and have them measure your shim stack and take that plus .0035-.005 of the flywheel. No guaranties it will measure within specs after you put it together. Depends if you have zero or negative zero play.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: Is Zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 motor Reply with quote

figure out why you have no end play. And what are you measuring it with? Is the engine out? Are you rebuilding it? Is is a core engine you bought? You cannot run an engine with no end play. And if the distributor is out, that can cause the distributor drive gear to bind movement of the crank, fooling you into thinking you have no play.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 9:51 am    Post subject: Re: Is Zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 motor Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
Is the engine out?

How do you measure endplay with the engine still in and attached to the transaxle?
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: Is Zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 motor Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
SGKent wrote:
Is the engine out?

How do you measure endplay with the engine still in and attached to the transaxle?
At the fan end... grasping at straws, but seen it done long ago
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: Is Zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 motor Reply with quote

Looked at a 70 Westie 15+ years ago, Type 1 motor with "recent rebuild" Lifted the lid with guy over my shoulder saying really clean right. I grab the crank pulley and can move it a good 1/6"-3/32" in and out. Guy says that's normal its not all the way broke in. I snicker and close the lid letting him know i'm not interested. I still should have bought it at the price point at the time.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: Is Zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 motor Reply with quote

MuzzcoVW wrote:
Glenn wrote:
SGKent wrote:
Is the engine out?

How do you measure endplay with the engine still in and attached to the transaxle?
At the fan end... grasping at straws, but seen it done long ago

Yes, you can push the pulley/fan forward from the rear, and someone stepping on the clutch pushes it all the way back.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: Is Zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 motor Reply with quote

Zero end play on a happily running engine is usually a measurement issue or a clutch error.

A wonky distributor drive gear interface will make measurement difficult. Removing the distributor temporarily may help, but NEVER rotate an engine without the distributor installed.

Too tight of clutch cable can make measuring hard/impossible.

End play on VW engines is set with three shims. The stackup is made of many different sizes, and you swap shims around for others to set the .003" to .005" end play before eventually replacing the main seal with a new one that leaks just as bad as the old one. (Don't forget the flywheel rubber o-ring. Spotless clean installation only.)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 2:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Is Zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 motor Reply with quote

Thanks all for the discussion points. The engine is out, new bearings were installed and in rebuild now. I put the original 3 shims in and torqued as literature requested and measured (No Movement). Took out the thickest shim .015 in (other two are both .0125 each). Then I put the other two in--torqued it with all seals out. I used a dial indicator 3 times and got .010 endplay. Based on that I think I need a .006 shim to get in spec. or shave the flywheel face (if that is an option. Any Idea where I could get a .005, .006 or .007?

Thanks for all the discussion. Wink
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Is Zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 motor Reply with quote

Buy 2 .010's
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 6:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Is Zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 motor Reply with quote

Are you using a bar to apply axial pressure to the crank in both directions? Not sure if there is an actual spec for how much pressure to use, more of a feel thing typically.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2023 8:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Is Zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 motor Reply with quote

Floridaman! wrote:
Any Idea where I could get a .005, .006 or .007?

Thanks for all the discussion. Wink


The thinnest Type 4 flywheel shim is .24mm.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2023 5:41 am    Post subject: Re: Is Zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 motor Reply with quote

bsairhead wrote:
Buy 2 .010's


You know thats a good idea -- I was busy thinking about a small shim I diddn't think about just buying a smaller stack and replacing them Haha! That should actually get me right where I need to be. So I ordered them and they should be in next week and Ill let everyone know.

Ya see sometimes it take all the input to come up with the most obvious answer. Thanks all I'll let you know what measurement I get. Should be in the spec though Razz
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2023 5:48 am    Post subject: Re: Is Zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 motor Reply with quote

I think it’s importánt to have three shims in an end play application like this. The middle mitigates the friction of the stator ( engine case) and the rotor ( flywheel ) shim with a film of oil

This is an internet opinion , of course
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2023 6:26 am    Post subject: Re: Is Zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 motor Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
I think it’s importánt to have three shims in an end play application like this. The middle mitigates the friction of the stator ( engine case) and the rotor ( flywheel ) shim with a film of oil

This is an internet opinion , of course
With the two .010's and the one .015 he already has he should be within spec. So yes I agree three shims is the way to go.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2023 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: Is Zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 motor Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
I think it’s importánt to have three shims in an end play application like this. The middle mitigates the friction of the stator ( engine case) and the rotor ( flywheel ) shim with a film of oil

This is an internet opinion , of course


A lot of people do not get the mechanics/physics of the three shim concept. It's not just in cars it's in a lot of industrial equipment. It's just as you pointed out. As the clutch moves in and out, having the single floating shim in the middle negates most of the wear to both case bearing and flywheel faces. Two could do that too under a lot of conditions but they would wear twice as fast.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2023 3:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Is Zero endplay a bad thing on a Type 4 motor Reply with quote

Thanks Ray. I’ve seen this in enough industrial equipment over the decades and thought I had figured out why.
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