Engine starting problem

[BarryL]

[flemcadiddlehopper]

[Lee Kolb]

I have to admit that those who did not think the problem was a result of the new intake manifold were likely correct.

I did later check the new manifold for leaks, and it was tight. No cracks.

And the same problem just recurred last week with the old intake manifold in place. Engine starts, runs very briefly, dies.

The car had begun to run very poorly, then not at all. It turned out to be a coil failure, but I had removed and examined the carb before discovering there was no spark. After replacing the coil and reinstalling the carb, the original problem returned. Still don't know what' going on.
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Driving either a bug or a bus since 1963.

[Stanagon]

Have you considered crud or sediment in the gas tank? Can you do fuel pressure test? Should only be about 2psi to carb.
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Stan's Classic Service, specializing in air-cooled VWs:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=614073

www.stanagon.com


My '61 Mango bus thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=110367
My '64 vert thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=386344
My '71 squareback thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=637709

[Lee Kolb]

I rigged a temporary fuel tank from with a quart jar feeding the fuel pump, and it made no difference.
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Driving either a bug or a bus since 1963.

[BarryL]

On the page before you mentioned "problem solved". The problem is back same as in the beginning even with different components replaced?

Have you examined the inside of the distributor? Sometimes weird things happen with the points or the connection between the points and the condenser. Sometimes a tit grows on the points and makes them closed. Sometimes the points get so close that when cold they are open and when hot are closed. Do you have a static light to test if the points are working? Do you have another distributor to swap in just to verify it isn't distributor related?

You mentioned that if the choke was held closed and you throttled it it would stay running. Is that still the case?

[Lee Kolb]

The problem I have now is, as near as I can remember, the same as the one I had last fall. (and thought was due to replacing the intake manifold.)

The car fires up and dies immediately. Previously, I was able to keep it running at times by pumping the accelerator. So far, this time, I have not been able to do that.

When I was trying to locate the "failure to start" problem last month, which turned out to be a coil failure, I removed and cleaned the distributor, set the points, and replaced the condenser. I don't think I have a distributor problem. FYI, I put the old condenser back yesterday to see if perhaps the replacement was faulty, but it made no difference.

The only time I can remember having similar symptoms was once when I reversed two spark plug wires. If I remember correctly, the car also fired up and then quit then. So the first thing I checked was the spark plug wiring.
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Driving either a bug or a bus since 1963.

[Lee Kolb]

Oh, and yes, I set the timing using a static light, so I know the points are opening and closing, at least when turning the engine by hand.
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Driving either a bug or a bus since 1963.

[BarryL]

Can you safely try pouring a water bottle cap half full of gas down the carb and then try to start and tell what happens? You said you removed and plugged the solenoid. Talk about how that was. Is the choke working right?

[Abscate]

How is that copper cap bonded to the manifold ? The choking behavior piints to a massive vacuum leak and that cap sure looks like a good point to start
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.ssS!

[Lee Kolb]

I purchased and installed the carburetor almost 40 years ago and don't recall how (or if) I got rid of the solenoid. It's a Solex 30 PICT-1.

The inlet on the intake manifold is plugged with Marine-Tex epoxy with a copper plumbing cap on top. I am not using that new manifold currently; I reinstalled the original after patching leaks in the heater tube. I have made a cap that mounts in place of the carburetor with a tire valve that I use with a compressor to check for manifold leaks.

My 6 volt auto choke failed some time ago, and the 12 v unit I got as a replacement wouldn't heat enough to open, so I attached a handle to the 6 volt unit and operate it manually when the weather is cold.

I will try the fuel in the carb next time I get to the shop and report the result.
I'd think that pumping the accelerator should accomplish the same thing.
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Driving either a bug or a bus since 1963.

[BulliBill]

If I understand correctly, you say that currently you can get the engine to fire up but that it immediately quits (when you release the key from the "start" position to fall back to the "on" position). I have a K.Ghia that recently started doing the same symptom. This may have nothing to do with your problem (or it might), but the K.G. folks say that this issue in a Ghia is often the internal failure of the ignition switch, and that ignition switch replacement is usually the fix for that symptom. Just a thought...

Bill
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I'm looking for these license plate frames for my fleet:
Coeur D'Alene - Lake Shore Volkswagen
Mission VW - San Fernando
Thornton VW - Stockton

Thanks for any help!

[BarryL]

[Abscate]

[Stanagon]

It might help to post some pictures of your engine. You never know what someone might see that could be the problem, if we can see what you have.

Did you figure out was this item is for?, from your gallery.

_________________
Stan's Classic Service, specializing in air-cooled VWs:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=614073

www.stanagon.com


My '61 Mango bus thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=110367
My '64 vert thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=386344
My '71 squareback thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=637709

[Lee Kolb]

Not being sure how much half a cap of fuel was, I put 5 ml down the carburetor with the choke wide open and hit the starter. The result was the same; it fired a few times and then quit. The temperature today was in the 70's and the car had always started fine without the choke when it was this warm, but today I tried manually closing the choke one step at a time while attempting to start. With the choke about 2/3 of the way closed it finally started and kept running, although the idle was pretty rough. I let it warm up for several minutes and was finally able to press the accelerator without causing it to die. Not running too well, but running, and it continued to run after I opened the choke back up. I shut it down for a while and then was able to restart it without the choke. It's still running rough, but at least I know that it is getting fuel, although probably not the right mixture.

Regarding the ignition switch suggestion; My switch began to give similar problems. It has been replaced with a toggle switch and a push button ingnition switch, both still pretty new.

Regarding the carb solenoid; I know that I have never had one. This is a 65 type II, and I would have had to add wiring to operate it. There may be a pilot jet, but I don't believe so. I will check this tomorrow when I get back to my garage/shop.

I checked spark from the coil output to ground, and it was bright after the coil replacement. It never occurred to me to short the points with a screwdriver; I have always turned the engine over with a socket wrench on the generator nut. Your way sounds easier.

Regarding the sheet metal piece that I posted a photo of-- someone from The Samba identified it for me, and I got it reinstalled.

I'll try to remember to take a photo of my engine (I don't carry a smartphone and have to borrow a camera) and post it. I doubt that you will find it very interesting. This is a working car, not a showpiece. At least it's supposed to be a working car.
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Driving either a bug or a bus since 1963.

[BarryL]

[rtroy]

I'm surprised at all the difficulty in tracing the problems with this one...

As many / most of us here know, so long as the engine has compression and not insane valve timing there are only three possibilities: you have an ignition problem, you have a fuel problem or you have both fuel and ignition problems.

"Fuel problem" includes all aspects of having a good mixture.

"Ignition problem" includes all aspects of having suitable spark.

... One of the most simple ways to check if a problem is fuel related or ignition related is to pour a fairly massive amount of fuel down the carb throat, keep the throttle plate WIDE OPEN, no choke (using a bit of bailing wire or garbage bag wire tie to keep both the choke and throttle as open as they can possibly be works fine), then hit the starter. It should take quite a bit of cranking for all that fuel to atomize but at some point the mixture will be perfect and it should run like a scalded cat. Use the key to keep it from reaching too high an RPM as necessary - high RPM is only OK under a heavy load as unloaded it damages things! Eventually, the fuel you added will die out and it will go back to your original symptoms. If this process plays out, then you've confirmed it's NOT the ignition system. If it won't "light up", or won't run to the moon, you know you have ignition problems - and you might also have mixture problems. If it does light up, you know your problem is with the mixture. If it fires but only stumbles and never "runs through" you know you have ignition problems.

The reason this test is important is because at SOME point, all on its own, the mixture created by pouring raw fuel in will be correct for combustion as the fuel evaporates. So, even if there is a massive air leak, the mixture will STILL be correct at some point, and this is why a massive amount of fuel is required to know for sure because you're creating a situation in which it's guaranteed to be too rich then leans out. The only way this test fails is if the carb is adding a lot of fuel all on its own, such as if it had a leak and runs a huge amount of fuel into the intake, thus keeping the mixture too rich to ignite at all times. But, a leak that big you can see easily with your eyes!

You can run a wire from the + on the battery directly to the ignition coil to eliminate all wiring issues that far. I once had a car that had similar symptoms to what's being reported here that was eventually traced to a wire that was broken internally, inside the insulation! It LOOKed good, it would make contact SOME of the time, then vibrate or whatever and -zip!- no more ignition! So, run it directly with a good wire to eliminate this.

You can run a wire from the starter to the battery area of a type II to provide for starter access from the back of the car - just touch it to + when you want the starter to operate.

Given all the work done, MY first thing to check at this point is the valve adjustment. NOT LESS than 0.004", and NOT MORE than 0.006. Check ALL the valves. It's remarkable how much bad valve adjustment can screw up an engine! Remember, an initial premise is "has good compression," and you can't get good compression with wacked out valve adjustment.
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Richard

Karmann Ghia and Porsche 356 enthusiast
Founder, The Karmann Ghia Club of N. America

[Lee Kolb]

This response in with regard to some of yesterday's posts. I want to get these out of the way before I read today's so I don't get (more) confused.

First, the power jet vs. electromagnetic cutoff that BarryL brought up. My carburetor is a 30PICT-1, part number 113 129 027H, purchased in 1984. It has neither a power jet or a cutoff. According to "Rob & Dave's web site", the first 30PICT-1's, which were used on the 1300cc engine, had neither. I must have been sold one of these.

Next, Stanagon asked for pictures of the engine. I took a couple today and will add them to my gallery. To anticipate a couple of questions;
The air cleaner came from the 40 hp engine that was in the car when I bought it. The used 1500 engine I installed later came without carb, generator, etc. so I scavenged these at the time.
I'm using a Type 1 muffler, which is why the air hoses have been rerouted.
That gadget mounted to the right of the engine is a Ford remote starting solenoid.
Other than that, and the added fuel filter, it's pretty standard.

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Driving either a bug or a bus since 1963.

[Stanagon]

The fuel filter looks to be installed wrong. Is it in the line between the fuel tank and the pump? If yes, it should be reversed so the fuel flows through toward the bigger (top side) of fuel filter. It also should be installed between the pump and the carb.

Having the fuel filter in the wrong direction might be part of the problem, but I wouldn't bet on it solving everything.
_________________
Stan's Classic Service, specializing in air-cooled VWs:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=614073

www.stanagon.com


My '61 Mango bus thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=110367
My '64 vert thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=386344
My '71 squareback thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=637709