Batteries!! I'm new

[mikedee]

Hey everybody, I'm new to the westy world, just bought a 1987 Vanagon, just starting to get it all the pieces together. I bought a tf49 fridge to replace the stock fridge with.

Plan is to put 300 watts of flexible solar on the roof and inside swap out my auxillary battery with either a couple other batteries or one big one. I'm thinking of storing these under the back seat.

I'm looking for minimum 220-230 ah for my auxillary power to go to an inverter so I can run a laptop, charge batteries, maybe even run small heater.

I been looking at tons of batteries, what do you guys think of something like this??

https://www.cdnrg.com/products/EV185A-A/

Any other suggestions to batteries you think might be better?

[mugford]

You shouldn't have to operate your inverter to run your laptop, the combined step-up and step-down losses will be significant. Find a 12V adapter for it instead. If you're running a Mac, there are 1-2 third party options for them.

[16CVs]

Welcome

Learn to use the FAQ'S this has been covered a bunch. Every possible scenario.
Using an Inverter to power a heater from a battery is like eating the golden goose.

Stacy
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1987 Syncro Westfalia Triple knob (bastard)
1989 Syncro Tristar Triple knob "Swedish"
2013 Jetta Hybrid a true "Zwitter"
Samba member # 14980
Call anytime number 650 722 4914 .
Keep Your van running and upkept tastefully for the love of the hobby.
Don't let your van end up in an "abortions" thread.

[WestyBob]

OP -- numerous deep cell battery options out there. Hard to recommend one over the other depending on need.

Many calculate their expected power requirements and work back to what they feel they need in the way of deep cell and solar juice.

What you propose sounds like a good plan for serious power.

Main thing is make sure all your deep cell battery(s) are topped off after draw down. Partial charging of deep cells after repeated use will kill them faster.

[bluebus86]

of course the inverter could be the heater!



please read up carefully on solar installs

link...

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=660443&highlight=total+loss


some folks have had bad results.


another poster had a battery fire, because he mixxed battery types, one type over charged badly and blew as the charge electrically speaking saw the other type of battery pull down the voltage so it kept charging, while one type was getting over charged.


there is some serius amperage in these systems, and some componnents maybe of questionable safetly (UL listed???) or may be very sensitive to the instructions being followed to the letter.

research, reseach, reseach what you plan to do, ask lots of questions from multibale sources, play it safe.
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[Merian]

it has to fit in the aux. box or somewhere else - will that one fit??

I've heard Werker is not a quality brand - mine failed suddenly, tho it lasted a few years

we really need a list of good quality batteries of the right size...

(and I don't think we have that despite the numerous scattered threads)
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....

[nocreditnodebt]

AGM batteries are often viewed as Super batteries.

But the sad facts are that while they eliminate the need for watering, and mostly eliminate the need for caring for the terminals, they do require a bit more effort on ensuring their charging parameters are better met, more often. Flooded batteries, especially the gc-2 6v batteries in series, are much more tolerant of less than perfect charging, and cost much less.

Find the manufacturer recommendations for absorption voltage, and meet that, as often as possible, for as long as required. This time is determined with an ammeter, When amps taper to X amount( usually around 0.5 amps per 100Ah of capacity) at absorption voltage 14.4 to 14.8v( at 77F/25c) then the battery can be considered fully charged. Colder temps require higher voltages, higher temps require lower voltage.

The AGM battery in general requires higher charge amperage, applied from its most depleted state to remain happy when deeply cycled to the 50% range.

Up to 30 amps per 100AH of capacity on most AGMS but some like Lifeline, Northstar and Odyssey want 40 amps or more per 100AH of capacity when deeply cycled.

As such these do not make great 'solar only' batteries. the occasional high amp recharge is key to their longevity in deep cycle usage


Expecting to run a small electric heater for any significant time is the new definition of lunacy.

i have a 200 watt Lasko heater. It presents a 19 amp load via my 400 watt PSW inverter and more than that as battery voltage drops. It also barely makes a dent in internal temperatures. I'll use it under the covers with knees tented to help warm the cold bed, but only for 10 to 15 minutes maximum. otherwise I do not use it unless I am plugged into the grid, and even then it can barely maintain 50f in high 30F ambients in my lightly insulated van.

My DC to DC car adapter for my laptop basically always uses ~15 watts less than my 400 watt inverter powering the laptop provided power brick.

The inverter is often viewed as the solution to all household power needs, but what they really are is the best tool easily available for the overdepletion of a battery. Combine this with chronic undercharging and the battery is a goner far too soon, and far before it otherwise would have failed.

Lead acid batteries ideally want to spend their entire existence at 100% fully charged. Anything less than this compromises their lifespan to some degree, so proper recharging is key to getting a respectable amount of cycles from them. Proper recharging lead acid means achieving true 100% recharges at least every 10 deep cycles. Otherwise they sulfate, lose capacity, and if the same amount of electricity is then drawn from them, they get depleted further below 50%, and degrade/lose capacity that much faster.

Lost capacity due to hardened sulfation does not come back. No matter how much one hopes otherwise, or how much one believes the marketing on well marketed "pulse desulfating" charging sources.

[mikedee]

Hey thanks everyone!!! Ok so maybe using the heater is a bad idea, rookie here!!!

Ok my friend is doing this... he's adding 4 of these Discovery ev12a batteries, here's a link...

http://bestbatteries.co.nz/ev12a-a-12v-140ah-20hrs-discover-ev-traction-cell-battery.html

I think two of these is enough for me, thoughts on these??

[djkeev]

I'm no battery expert by a long shot!

But .......
I do know this, if you plan on charging your house batteries as you drive, they should be of the same formulation as your starter battery.

Different battery designs require unique charging profiles. Mixing the types produces one healthy battery type and one under charged or over charged battery type.

I run a flooded wet cell starter battery and two flooded wet cell 6v golf cart batteries. I have more storage than I need and no charging issues!

Yes, there are big $ isolators that can figure out what is what and charge accordingly but I've found that it is often best to utilize the KISS principle if you can.

Dave
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Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[jmranger]

$960, 87 pounds each.
And you want two.



OK, you're new. So let me say that - and you're free to disagree.
Those vans are small. And underpowered.
I believe that they work better when you look at them with a minimalistic mindset.
Less stuff means you're not shuffling bags and boxes all around the van every time you switch from driving to camping. Less stuff means less weight to haul with that puny engine.

My suggestion: take two steps back. Use the van a little, exactly as it's now. Learn its strength and weaknesses from real-world experience. And only then commit to spending big bucks.

Oh, and welcome, and have fun!

[jimf909]

300 watts of solar and 220 ah of battery is a lot for common loads such as laptop, fridge and propane/diesel/gas furnace.

I started wit 100 watts of solar and 150 ah of battery and will add battery as needed but that hasn't happened yet.

Spend a few hours reading the solar threads and then use your van to see what you want to add. Or, and this will work fine, add what you've described and enjoy plenty of juice for the foreseeable future. There's absolutely no harm in that. As others have stated, the only less than ideal item in your list is regular use of an inverter. There are better solutions, although having an inverter on board is still a good idea when you really need AC, say, charging a camera battery for which you don't have a 12 volt adapter handy.
_________________
- Jim

[fxr]

With charging laptops, cell-phones, tablets, using the stereo and LED lighting - we survive camping in one spot for days on end quite happily with a 35Ah aux battery under the driver's seat and a 100W suitcase solar panel.

Just by avoiding high-current devices (12V fridges, inverters, sub-woofer amplifiers) and constant low-current drains (unswitched USB chargers and LED voltage meters) one can easily minimise the energy requirements.
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Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300

[bluebus86]

[djkeev]

Why would you avoid a 12v fridge?

There isn't anything better than a good cold refer box!

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[fxr]

[mikedee]

Thanks again guys this is super helpful, I'm not paying the price that website says, I was just pointing to a website that has those batteries, my friend only paid 1/3 of that price.

I'm going to do a lot of reading here, I have lots to learn before I get into this.

[bluebus86]

[mikedee]

Ha I really appreciate this all, my buddy that had the four batteries, he's an electrician, he'll be helping me, I have another electrician friend as well who will be helping and anther buddy who can pretty much make anything will be helping too. Gonna sit down with everyone, get a solid game plan, lots of planning for sure. I'm not going to rush this. Gonna take our time for sure, I have a lot of reading to do here, anyone have any really great links in this forum to get me started?

[nocreditnodebt]

Regarding two different battery types in parallel:

Lets say one's vehicle has a voltage regulator always seeking 14.0v, No higher, no lower.

Lets also say the alternator is able to produce enough amperage to hold the system voltage at 14.0v no matter the load on the system.

Lets say the engine battery is a standard starting battery

Lets say the house battery is a Finicky AGM battery like an Odyssey group 31.

Lets say the AGM house battery is at 50% state of charge, let's say the engine battery is 99.5% State of charge.

Engine just started and the battery combiner isolator just hooked batteries together.
The 99.5% engine battery will only require a few amps for less than a minute before it requires less than 2 amps to be held at 14.0v

The 50% depleted AGM Odyssey house battery can suck a hundred amps for quite some time before voltage creeps up to 14.0v. it will drag system voltage down as it sucks everything the alternator can make

The Odyssey wants a minimum of 40 amps applied until it reaches 14.7v, then 14.7v is to be held for ~ 4 more hours, and then it will be in the 100% charged range.

But the voltage regulator only allows 14.0v maximum.

So 14.0v would not make the Odyssey battery happy, time to recharge to full would increase greatly. Unless one is driving 1/3 the way across the country, the Odyssey battery is not going to get fully charged, not at 14.0v.

Now the engine battery at 99.5% charged only needs about 15 to 30 minutes at 14.0v for it to be in the 100% charged range. it will only be accepting about 1.5 amps to get there at 99.56% and taper from there. Once it is full, it would prefer voltage to drop to 13.2v. But it is being held at 14.0v.

The point is, that alternator recharging is so incredibly UN-IDEAL that worrying about whether both batteries are the same make model and type is not worth the effort.
Now if these batteries, with engine off, were still in parallel, the one battery would discharge faster than the other and degrade much faster.

I've been using my alternator to charge 2 different types of batteries for years. The warnings not to do this sound good, but in practice it make little to no difference. The battery can only accept what it wants at the voltage allowed by the voltage regulator. The voltage regulator is imperfect in the extreme.

NOW, if the VR was set to 14.8v, and one had a Gel battery whose maximum absorption voltage was only 14.1v, then there would be issues.

Battery charging can be taken to extremes of precision for maximum longevity, and throwing around voltage numbers like gospel sounds great, but the trick to battery life is getting them 100% charged as soon as possible as often as possible after any discharge event.

A Vehicles voltage regulator setpoint is a Compromise. 14.0v will slow house battery charging, but is still too high for a fully charged battery. 14.8v will cause a battery to use more water, and if the battery is really hot and depleted, and the alternator spinning fast and able to produce high amperage, 14.8v might warp the plates.

13.6v will not properly charge most depleted batteries even if one were to drive cross country without stopping, and yet 13.6v held on a flooded battery that is already full is too much, as the flooded battery recommended float voltage is only 13.2v.

So Do not worry about different batteries when charging via alternator. It is already so far from ideal as to not make a difference. it is more important to at least get the Battery as close to full as possible in the time one is running the engine.
Yes long drives in hot weather with fully charged batteries can present issues.

My solution to this, is an Adjustable voltage regulator, with an External potentiometer on my dashboard next to my voltmeters. I know when my batteries are fully charged via an Ammeter and an Ah counter, at which point I then lower voltage to the recommended float voltage of my AGm battery, 13.6v. But if the battery is hotter than 77F, I lower this accordingly.

If my batteries are depleted, I crank it upto 14.8v and the batteries suck Everything the alternator can make until the batteries themselves approach 14.8, at which time the amperage needed to maintain 14.8v begins to taper.

A pair of flooded GC-2 batteries, golf cart batteries, are some of the cheapest and most durable deep cycle batteries available.
yes there is offgassing issues with flooded batteries charging at proper charging voltages. often dismissed here with ridicule. Ill avoid that topic..

If one really wants an AGM battery for the lack of offgassing during normal charging, then know that AGMS want higher charge rates when depleted, and also really really want to start the next discharge cycle from 100% charged, not 80%, not 90%, not even 98% charged.

Charging from 80% to 100% takes no less than 3 hours, and likely closer to 4.5 hours, when the battery is held at the proper absorption voltage. Lesser voltages longer times are required.

Not sure What AGMs are available in Canada, but posting links to battery X and battery Y, well no one can give you an answer other than will it fit, or not.

Without knowing how battery X or battery Y was treated, any reports of longevity or performance are entirely meaningless.

One should have a plug in charger which meets the Absorption and float voltage and minimum and maximum amperage specs of the battery being charged.

Solar is great for getting the battery from 80% to 100%, as it takes time at the proper electrical pressure (voltage)to fully charge in this state of charge range, not high currents(amperage)

Really, one new to using battery power for house appliances, is going to be a battery murderer. Big bucks spent on any given AGM battery, are most often big bucks thrown away due to overdischarging and incomplete and chronic undercharging, and ignorance of these occurrences entirely.

Much less painful to deal with a wally world marine battery when it fails prematurely, time and again, while one learns what they can expect from that giant heavy rectangular thing called a lead acid battery.

If one does not want to at least approach the some minimum requirements of the lead acid battery recharge requirements, then the best most $$$ battery and the worst cheapest battery will live just about the same amount of time.

When one gets a good grasp of how to treat a battery, and the equipment to do so, then one can get an impressive cycle life from authentic deep cycle high$$ lead acid batteries, AGM or flooded.

If one can't be bothered, go cheap, and when the capacity drops to the point where it is not enough to meet the owner's needs, go get another one. It is a PITA when this happens unexpectedly in the sticks, but so be it.

[mtnride1]

My battery set up is the one under each seat and I have a Peace Vans battery tray installed under my sliding door 160ah battery, so I still have all my storage space inside. I also have a t-49 and a portable 120 watt solar system with the controller attached to my panels. I can park in the shade and move my panels with the sun.
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