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ldj1002 Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2015 Posts: 260
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:39 am Post subject: Timming puzzle |
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I take #1 spark plug out ( the one on right farthest back from me) turn engine till I feel compression. Then get soda straw stick down there to find TDC. Grove in pulley lines up with split in case. Rotor points to #1 position and that wire goes to #1 cylinder. Put timing light on, crank engine and it runs good. Pull trigger on light and I don't see the grove. I wait till dark to try again and still don't see it. This morning I double check everything and still can;t see the grove. I decided to clamp the timing light to other wires. #2 still don't see grove, #4 and I see the timing mark grove right where it should be. What is causing this? |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Timming puzzle |
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Does the timing light have an advance dial on it?, is it set to 0? _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31268 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:03 am Post subject: Re: Timming puzzle |
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I will just say that my old timing light has a positive 12 volt connection, a negative connection, and a sensor that clamps on the spark plug wire. Did you see a flash at all when you pull the trigger on the timing light with all connected and engine running ?
I take some white paint (or white paint stick) and mark the appropriate timing point on the crankshaft pulley. _________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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ldj1002 Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2015 Posts: 260
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Timming puzzle |
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Yes timing light flashes and it doesn't have advance dial |
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David_nc_72std Samba Member
Joined: August 22, 2015 Posts: 841 Location: Winston-Salem, NC
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Timming puzzle |
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Something is definitely not right, because #4 (and #2) should be firing 180 degrees opposite the timing mark.
Since the engine runs, something must be wired correctly, but its possible you could be running on only a couple of cylinders. Does your wiring match this diagram (note that the #1 cylinder may be in a different position on the distributor, but the firing order needs to be 1-4-3-2):
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ldj1002 Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2015 Posts: 260
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Posted: Mon Oct 03, 2016 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Timming puzzle |
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David_nc_72std wrote: |
Something is definitely not right, because #4 (and #2) should be firing 180 degrees opposite the timing mark.
Since the engine runs, something must be wired correctly, but its possible you could be running on only a couple of cylinders. Does your wiring match this diagram (note that the #1 cylinder may be in a different position on the distributor, but the firing order needs to be 1-4-3-2):
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Yes engine could be running on less than 4 cylinders. Manifold boots leaking so I cut them off and used gorilla tape instead of boots. runs better than with old boots but definatelly not right. However I wouldn't think that would cause this issue. This afternoon I brought # 1 piston to BDC then put timing mark top of pulley to match case split. If I clamp pickup to #1 I can see mark but remember that mark is really BDC on pulley #1 piston is at BDC. I clamp pickup to #4 and I can see mark on pulley and that is TDC on pulley as it where I found #1 at TDC on compression stroke.
I remember reading sometime back that the thing that drives the distributor could be put in 180 off and it would cause something strange. I don't remember what but I wouldn't it would cause this. My dist and wires are just like your diagram and rotor points to #1 tower. |
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Dougy Dee Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2004 Posts: 1668 Location: Niagara Region, CANADA
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 5:20 am Post subject: Re: Timming puzzle |
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Pull the 1-2 side valve cover and turn the engine over until #2 exxhaust is starting to open. There you will be approaching or at #1 TDC. Now where does your dizzy rotor point?
Now, what does your degree pulley tell you? |
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ldj1002 Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2015 Posts: 260
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Timming puzzle |
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Dougy Dee wrote: |
Pull the 1-2 side valve cover and turn the engine over until #2 exxhaust is starting to open. There you will be approaching or at #1 TDC. Now where does your dizzy rotor point?
Now, what does your degree pulley tell you? |
Dougy,
I did that and it is as you describe. Dizzy rotor points to #1 and degree pulley notch is at case split.
I have checked and double checked for TDC #1 several ways including this morning when I had it TDC with valve cover off I took nut off pulley to check where the key way is. It is at 9 o'clock.
Since timing light gets it's signal inductive, is there a possibility it is getting the signal from another source? I have separated wires to try to prevent that. I think it is a timing light problem. There has to be an explanation. |
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USMCbug Samba Yoda
Joined: April 29, 2004 Posts: 2573 Location: Wichita, KS
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:18 am Post subject: Re: Timming puzzle |
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When I use a timing light I try to get the lead down on the wire to where it's far enough from the other wires to interfere with it.
Oh, might look into getting new boots. The gorilla tape is a poor fix even if temporary. I highly doubt it will stand up to the effects of the fuel. _________________ 72 Super Beetle
73 Standard Beetle
79 Baywindow Bus
65 Split Window Bus
79 Baywindow Bus
71 Super Beetle (current)
"When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the
scabbard."
- General Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson |
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ldj1002 Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2015 Posts: 260
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:46 am Post subject: Re: Timming puzzle |
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USMCbug wrote: |
When I use a timing light I try to get the lead down on the wire to where it's far enough from the other wires to interfere with it.
Oh, might look into getting new boots. The gorilla tape is a poor fix even if temporary. I highly doubt it will stand up to the effects of the fuel. |
I've got new boots ordered. I know gorilla tape is a poor fix, not even a fix, just a band aid. Not planning on driving it ANY that way. Did that hoping I could time it in the ball park while waiting on boots. My surprise was when the timing marks were so far off I couldn't even see them then I knew I had a problem. That problem positively isn't TDC on #1 wrong, it is right. Ive checked it too many different ways. |
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USMCbug Samba Yoda
Joined: April 29, 2004 Posts: 2573 Location: Wichita, KS
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Timming puzzle |
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Your timing light could be bad. _________________ 72 Super Beetle
73 Standard Beetle
79 Baywindow Bus
65 Split Window Bus
79 Baywindow Bus
71 Super Beetle (current)
"When war does come, my advice is to draw the sword and throw away the
scabbard."
- General Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson |
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beetlenut Samba Member
Joined: May 27, 2009 Posts: 2980 Location: RI
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:11 am Post subject: Re: Timming puzzle |
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I'm somewhat confused by your description, but the mark on the pulley is not TDC. What is your engine supposed to be timed at? 5 or 7 degrees BTDC, or 5 degrees ATDC, or ?? You might pull the distributor, when at TDC, and look at the orientation of the distributor drive gear to see if in fact it is installed 180 out. Pictures would help all understand the situation better too. _________________ scrapyards are for quitters
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Wetstuff wrote: |
... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again. |
- Words to live by right there!
My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104 |
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pb_foots Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2010 Posts: 1089 Location: Ben Lomond, CA
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 12:54 pm Post subject: Re: Timming puzzle |
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Static time it until you get the boots on. It's not as exact as a gun, but it works well enough for your purposes right now. _________________
sjbartnik wrote: |
Engines get hot. They have fire inside. |
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ldj1002 Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2015 Posts: 260
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Timming puzzle |
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I did static time it but I need to use timing light for total advance. When I get my boots I still won't be able to time for total advance.
beetlenut, The mark on the pulley is TDC but when I use timing light it shows to be 180 off. I know that isn't right because it wouldn't run 180 off.
I even got another plug wire and run it from #1 on dizzy to #1 plug and run it up and away from any other wires trying to eliminate possible interference with the inductive pickup. No change. |
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Starbucket Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007 Posts: 4006 Location: WA
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 1:46 pm Post subject: Re: Timming puzzle |
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Looking at your 1st post, if the light is on the mark on number 4, then pull all the wires out of the cap and put #1 in #4 and the rest in order following it clockwise and see how it runs. Your gear or your rotor is off (I had a Mallory you could loosen a inner clamp and rotate the rotor anywhere you want). Might help if you say what year car and dist. # you have, and is it vacuum or mechanical advance. |
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HRVW Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2011 Posts: 2531 Location: Rosarito, Mexico
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: Timming puzzle |
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A little lesson here.
The dist drive gear has 12 teeth as such that many places for #1 or #3 rotor to be pointing.
Have a 1/2 dozen dists on hand (different makes/brands).
With the crank pully factory notch at the case seam what ever dist installed will have it's rotor pointing at #1 or #3 PERIOD.
The rotor can be pointing all over the place but still will be at #1 or #3.
Just a matter of turning the dist body either to the left or right so the rotor is under a caps wire to #1 or #3.
You can have the cap and wires installed 1-4-3-2....timing light connected to #1 or #3.... .key on..... rotate the dist body clockwise a couple of inches then ccw while squeezing the timing light trigger.....there should be a light flash on the pully notch.....static timing is set.
I have elect Ign in my 1776 Turbo bug and NO problems doing the above for 28 years.
VW mechanic (retired) |
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ldj1002 Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2015 Posts: 260
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 4:51 pm Post subject: Re: Timming puzzle--PROBLEM SOLVED! |
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HRVW wrote: |
A little lesson here.
The dist drive gear has 12 teeth as such that many places for #1 or #3 rotor to be pointing.
Have a 1/2 dozen dists on hand (different makes/brands).
With the crank pully factory notch at the case seam what ever dist installed will have it's rotor pointing at #1 or #3 PERIOD.
The rotor can be pointing all over the place but still will be at #1 or #3.
Just a matter of turning the dist body either to the left or right so the rotor is under a caps wire to #1 or #3.
You can have the cap and wires installed 1-4-3-2....timing light connected to #1 or #3.... .key on..... rotate the dist body clockwise a couple of inches then ccw while squeezing the timing light trigger.....there should be a light flash on the pully notch.....static timing is set.
I have elect Ign in my 1776 Turbo bug and NO problems doing the above for 28 years.
VW mechanic (retired) |
HRVW,
I tried that and the timing light never flashed. Got to be the timing light is bad.
That made me remember when I used to do maintenance on on aircraft engines. The timing on them are always set static and there is no centrifugal or vacuum advance. Since aircraft engines are always, well most always, run at cursing RPM and constantly there, no higher, lower or in between. Therefore most are timed around 20 to 25* static. I went and found my old magneto synchronizer and checked my static timing and it is right on.
Last edited by ldj1002 on Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:13 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Cusser Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006 Posts: 31268 Location: Hot Arizona
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:04 pm Post subject: |
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ldj1002 wrote: |
Since aircraft engines are always, well most always, run at cursing RPM ... |
Yeah, how do those $#%^&$#$^$^*%#$@!&(&^~# things fly ???
_________________ 1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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HRVW Samba Member
Joined: May 01, 2011 Posts: 2531 Location: Rosarito, Mexico
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Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 9:44 pm Post subject: Re: Timming puzzle |
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I actually had three Snap Ontiming lightsand gave one to a good neighbor friend. One is the Knob controll and the other has the Tach which I used for my racing and doing HP Engines.
Maybe the OP has a poor ground.....I always used the bumper.
Few months ago I had my Elect Ign run me ragged.....replacing wires, Coil, spk plugs and when I installed my Porsche 912 dist the problems ceased. Replaced the Elect Ign and the problems returned. Had another dist with the Elect Ign so it went inside and is working just fine. Both units were/are over 20 some yrs old but not that may miles but still......
Still have two 009 dists along with the 912..... in case.....never know.
Installng them the #1 rotor was always pointing in a different direction. |
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ldj1002 Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2015 Posts: 260
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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2016 12:27 pm Post subject: Re: Timming puzzle PROBLEM SOLVED! |
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It was the timing light. I bought a new one and it works perfect. The good thing it was so far off I knew something was wrong. What if it had been off just a few degrees and I had set total advance wrong? Not good! I am 77 years old and never heard of a timing light being wrong. |
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