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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 10:38 am Post subject: Propex 2211 heater install under floor (many pics!) |
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Hi folks,
Almost done with my Propex 2211 forced-air heater install. I'd do a couple things different if doing it again, but there's no problems (yet). The whoooshing noise and blow-force coming out of the vent is significant, there's plenty of air to divert to another location. It has a slower speed that it uses on cool-down, I like that one better, but you can't "select" that lower speed. I like the 'soft start' of the fan motor. For a noise comparison, it's about the same as -->my<-- FRONT defrost fan on setting#2.
Looking forward to heat!
I mounted my heater on rubber vibration isolation mounts, for quietness. I don't know if it made a difference as I have no other vans around to compare it to. 2WD vans in warm climates are probably fine with this mounting but I'll probably adapt to 20 lb mounts. My assessment (of 6 x 7 lbs per mount = 42 lbs) capacity is fine for indoor mounting but after seeing it UNDER the van, it seems insufficient. There could be sticks and stuff. How hard does a wall of water hit? How much does it weigh encased in ice?
Onward.
EDIT. If you want to leave room for a 2nd 30.25" propane tank below, recommend to ADD 1 inch to the 3 3/8" for the rearward dimension...... (thats a lotta 4 3/8" ! ).
Here's where I put my duct holes. It is centered (inboard/outboard) in the cavity below. I would not reduce the 3 3/8 dimension.
Heres where those points are under the van. Note that these holes can be moved appx 3/4" inboard to allow more space for attachment of the combustion air inlet and flue.
Here's where I drilled the hot air vent to the living space. There's a lot of 3/8.
The bend radius of the (60mm = 2 3/8" ) vent ducting is appx 1 inch at the inner radius.
I cut the intake and exhaust pipes about 3/8" shorter. I used silicone to glue the 3/4" copper "street 90 ells onto the outlets. And glued the flues onto the ells too. Hoping the tight 90s don't add too much flow resistance.
I mounted my heater with these vibration mounts, for quietness. I don't know if it's going to make a difference. They are from McMaster-Carr (9376K15) and are rated for 7 lbs each. The heater weighs 17 lbs. With six mounts the capacity is appx 42 lbs. The 7 lb mounts are likely the quietest but I'm considering the larger 20 lb mounts (9376K17). And maybe a protection bar too; to reduce worry about driving off-road.
Here's the six vibration standoff mounts. If mines not quieter than a solid-mounted heater I'll either solid-mount it.
Photo of the mounts and ductwork at rear.
Propane connection and combustion inlet/exhaust. With an IR tempgun I measured 280*F at the copper flue outlet ell after the furnace was running fullbore for 5 minutes.
Positioning the heater. Notice the square threaded nut that's welded to the van body. If I was to do this again I'd choose a slightly forward location, up to 1 inch.
Slight forward mounting would allow a little easier insertion of the ducts and allow more space for the exhaust flue loop. It's 9 1/2 inches from the rear crossmember. So if I did it again I'd use 10 1/2". The hot air duct is recommended to be 12 inches long minimum. This installation is 11 3/4". Moving the heater forward 1 inch would add an inch to duct length = 12 3/4".
I cut the duct bushing like this, and removed the lip inside. Then siliconed the duct into the bushing. The black grating screws into the bushing and sandwiches the seat kick-panel.
I've seen lots of controls placed here and it makes sense, you can reach it from the bed.
You have to make a fairly large hole for the thermostat wire. I used a 1/2" drill, and then filed it square. It was easy with these tools.
Thermostat wire rises up out of the underseat storage to access the lower forward corner of the cabinet. No doubt there are better ways but I was stuck and wanted to move forward and did the drill-baby-drill thing.
Westyventures recommends to avoid cutting the length of the heater outlet flue because nobody really knows whether the safety sensors will tolerate changes. I hope the sensors don't mind the loop. I will make a little hole at the low point so there's no possibility of a water trap.
The exhaust flue makes some racket outside, so its reasonable this noise could transmit into the van body. Or fan noise could travel down the flue. So I isolated the flue with a rubber vibration mount. I don't know if its necessary. That's an M6 rivnut. After running the furnace fullbore I measured the temp of the stainless steel exhaust flue at the outlet and it's 90*F. So I put my hand on it.....it's not very hot.
OK this is an oops. There's no need for the combustion air duct to be routed so far from the flue outlet. I was thinking of it as the "intake air for the living space" and that it needed to be isolated from the flue outlet. Not so - it's combustion air, not breathing air.
Propex recommends to NOT cut this combustion air supply tube shorter. Which can be a little problematic if it had a low spot that filled with water and froze. So I guess the one benefit of routing it as shown it doesn't have much of a water trap. I suppose it should have a drain hole at a low point. If it causes problems it's easily plugged.
Here's the current state of the underseat. The open duct is the 'return air intake'. I intend to build a little plywood box covering these two ducts. I'd like to appropriate somoene's rejected underseat (coolant) heater box for materials.
Well, hope this helps members install their furnaces! I'm just about ready for Descend on Bend! _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:40 pm; edited 10 times in total |
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candyman Samba Trout Slayer
Joined: December 20, 2003 Posts: 2694 Location: Missoula MT
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Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Propex 2211 heater install under floor (many pics!) |
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Nice install. I also ran my propane lines through the openings of the frame rails. I hope road vibration does not cause an issue with them however |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 2:41 pm Post subject: Re: Propex 2211 heater install under floor (many pics!) |
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I siliconed them wherever they were loose or rattled - so there's no movement or noise. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:55 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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lucianosanchez Samba Member
Joined: May 04, 2016 Posts: 212 Location: Ventura County
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Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:26 pm Post subject: Re: Propex 2211 heater install under floor (many pics!) |
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This looks great. Thank you for the well documented process. Have you found a way to use the lower speed? When it's on, is it super loud? _________________ 1983.5 Aussan Brown Westfalia | 2016 to 2020
1983.5 Beige Westfalia | 2019 to Current |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: Propex 2211 heater install under floor (many pics!) |
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I doubt there's any way to use the lower speed. Its controlled by a microprocessor.
If I stand in the center of the van, the loudness of the Propex outlet sounds the same as the front defrost fan on setting #2. But the Propex I can't hear whirring, it's just whoosh; whereas I hear the fan whirring from the defrost up front. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb |
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Stephenmarklay Samba Member
Joined: August 10, 2016 Posts: 526 Location: Spokane
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Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2016 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: Propex 2211 heater install under floor (many pics!) |
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Looks great. Good job. _________________ 1985 Westfalia. Project 2017. |
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landkholdings Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2008 Posts: 250 Location: N. GA
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Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Propex 2211 heater install under floor (many pics!) |
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Nice work. You're going to love it! _________________ Kevin |
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JudoJeff Samba Member
Joined: May 24, 2013 Posts: 1179 Location: Near Springfield, MA
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Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 7:01 am Post subject: Re: Propex 2211 heater install under floor (many pics!) |
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I have interior shelves you can have, PM me. _________________ ________________________________________
1989 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Burned up on 7/31/16.
1987 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Bostig & Rebuilt, sold
1986 Vanagon GL Westfalia Camper, Bostig Sold May 10, 2021
1999 Ford GTRV Westfalia camper (30% bigger Westy layout) |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7400 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Sat Oct 08, 2016 10:28 am Post subject: Re: Propex 2211 heater install under floor (many pics!) |
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This is the best 2211 build thread yet and the timing is perfect as I get ready to install mine. Thanks, Sodo!
Below are some other 2211 threads for reference:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=524488&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=578340&highlight=2211
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=645623&highlight=2211
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=527133&highlight=2211
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=580690&highlight=2211 _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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UKJohn Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2016 Posts: 1 Location: uk
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 2:45 pm Post subject: Anti Vibration Mounts and Propex Acoustic Ducting |
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Anti Vibration Rubber Mounts
The anti vibration rubber mounts used are designed to be used in compression, not tension. The metal to rubber bond is very weak under tension and if corroded.
Good news if the rubber mounts do remove the vibration completely.
I’m working on retrofitting the same anti vibration mounts but fitting them into U channel so that the Propex heater is sitting on top of the rubber mounts and the channel hangs down from the chassis.
Like the OP, the exhaust pipe will be mounted on the same rubber mounts, the load is so small that loading in tension is not an issue.
Propex Acoustic Ducting
I can report that the Acoustic Ducting sold by Propex is very very good at removing fan noise and ducting turbulence noise.
http://www.propexheatsource.co.uk/acoustic-ducting
After testing my installation, I found using it on all air outlets and air inlets, all fan noise and vibration was removed from the ducting. This left the 2211 unit vibration through the chassis as the only noise in the heating system.
Hopefully mine will be as successful as the OP |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Propex 2211 heater install under floor (many pics!) |
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Good point about the tension on the mounts. Currently with 6 mounts I have only 3 lbs per mount. Pretty sure they can handle it, but prob not a hit from a big stick. I will oversize them, I ordered the 20lb mounts. And I'll put a skidplate under it so if the mounts fail in tension it then rests on the skidplate.
On the acoustic ducting that sure makes sense but I wonder how much sound can be attenuated in (my case) 12 inches of duct.
Perhaps designing a system to use 3or 4 feet of muffled duct would be quieter. Pretty easy to mock it up & listen (test) if you have the quiet duct on hand. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Wed Oct 19, 2016 9:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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jimf909 Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2014 Posts: 7400 Location: WA/ID
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Posted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:34 pm Post subject: Re: Propex 2211 heater install under floor (many pics!) |
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^^^
Good point, which is probably why they recommend a meter of ducting which would make for an install challenge in a vanagon.
"To ensure maximum effect 1 metre of ducting should be used with no sharp bends in the run."
As far as the skid plate, I've been considering that too. How about having the propex sit on isolation blocks on the skid plate as opposed to hanging from the floor? A thought... _________________ - Jim
Abscate wrote: |
Do not get killed, do not kill others.
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Current: 1990 Westy Camper - Bostig RG4, 2wd, manual trans w/Peloquin, NAHT high-top, 280 ah LFP battery, 160 watts solar, Flash Silver, seam rust, bondo, etc., etc.
Past: 1985 Westy Camper - 1.9 wbx, 2wd, manual trans, Merian Brown, (sold after 17 years to Northwesty who converted it to a Syncro). |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Anti Vibration Mounts and Propex Acoustic Ducting |
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UKJohn wrote: |
I’m working on retrofitting the same anti vibration mounts but fitting them into U channel so that the Propex heater is sitting on top of the rubber mounts and the channel hangs down from the chassis. |
This is a good idea. If the u-channel is bolted to the Propex, then the assembly bolted upward at the last step this will work great. Lots of ways to do this. It's the better way. Perhaps with riv-nuts. Rivnuts can be difficult in the various thicknesses of that frame member, good luck.
I just replaced the 7 lb mounts with 20lb size mounts. They're still in tension, but if the 7lb tested out OK for a 2,000 mile drive I'm pretty sure the six 20lb mounts (Mcmaster-Carr # 9376K17) will hold this 17 lb heater just fine. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:29 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Gizmoman Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2011 Posts: 1554 Location: Nevada
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Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: Propex 2211 heater install under floor (many pics!) |
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Sodo - you do a fantastic job of documenting things. It also seems you are doing everything I have on my wish list, or am in the process of doing.
Thanks Sodo! _________________ 82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9 TD, HE200 Holset, WAIC, 27.75 dia tires, Electric power steering, 5-speed AAP w/.078 5th
Oversize spare carrier - stock location (no longer for sale). |
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Alaskaberrys Samba Member
Joined: June 19, 2016 Posts: 1000 Location: SE Alaska
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Posted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:00 pm Post subject: Re: Propex 2211 heater install under floor (many pics!) |
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Ditto that last ^^^^^ Great documentation and explanations Sodo, well thought out and executed.
I am going to do the same install in a few weeks, just ordered the 2211 today with grommets.
A question; I'd like to mount the 2211 and a 2nd standard LP tank on the passenger side. I've looked through the 2211 threads and was looking to find out if anyone has done that - or if it's possible. I couldn't find anything definitive.
Looks like there is room - needs 30" - but thought I'd query. (Our van is down south so I can't measure it )
Mark _________________ '91 Westfalia, Bordeaux Red Pearl 2.1L 2wd Auto
'91 T3 Syncro Doka, Escorial Green 1.9L TD AAZ “Gremian” (to provoke, irritate, exasperate, vex...) |
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Timwhy Samba Member
Joined: January 01, 2009 Posts: 3996 Location: Maine
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 4:06 am Post subject: Re: Propex 2211 heater install under floor (many pics!) |
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Alaskaberrys wrote: |
Ditto that last ^^^^^ Great documentation and explanations Sodo, well thought out and executed.
I am going to do the same install in a few weeks, just ordered the 2211 today with grommets.
A question; I'd like to mount the 2211 and a 2nd standard LP tank on the passenger side. I've looked through the 2211 threads and was looking to find out if anyone has done that - or if it's possible. I couldn't find anything definitive.
Looks like there is room - needs 30" - but thought I'd query. (Our van is down south so I can't measure it )
Mark |
In this pic you can see the back studs for the tank, you'd have to make a bracket for the tank if the propex was in that same spot.
I had a look at a friends a couple of weeks ago and there isn't enough room the way he has his mounted.
There is roughly 54" in that space and when the tank is mounted in the correct position from the back cross beam to the end of the tank in the back is about 11.5"
You'd have to take in consideration the frame tapers in the front too.
_________________ '15 Audi A3 Quattro
'09 VW Tiguan (dead)
'87 VW Westy
'91 Tin Top
'90 Cabby
What the Westy wants the Westy GETS
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_search.php?search_author=Timwhy&show_results=summary
http://www.youtube.com/user/TIMWHY2?feature=mhee |
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tarandusVDub Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2010 Posts: 1649 Location: Between Here and There
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:00 am Post subject: Re: Propex 2211 heater install under floor (many pics!) |
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Alaskaberrys wrote: |
A question; I'd like to mount the 2211 and a 2nd standard LP tank on the passenger side. I've looked through the 2211 threads and was looking to find out if anyone has done that - or if it's possible. |
I'm hoping to do this too, but am not at the mock up stage yet. Another concern for me is that we are now using an ARB side tent room that attaches to our awning, and I'm now wondering if the exhaust can be routed another way so that it won't pump into the adjacent wall of the room, putting gases into our living space at night. Anyone with the same setup? _________________ 1990 Syncro 16" DoppleKabine 2.1 DJ 112i
________________________
Sold: 1972 Bay Campmobile; 1984 Westy, base model, 2WD. |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9517 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:45 am Post subject: Re: Propex 2211 heater install under floor (many pics!) |
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I have seen an ARB awning with the side walls. It seals up to some extent, but to imagine it "trapping gases", its a very loose-fitting unit with significant leaks. And there are two large screened windows; each bigger than the entire slider door.
Even with these windows zipped up, on all four upper corners it straps to the awning support poles with loops of velcro. The awning structure cannot seal at the van roof - there is an opening at the very least four inches wide X 10 feet long where the awning bolts to the van. And another large opening about 18 inches X 6 feet below the slider between the wheels.
I suppose you are concerned the gases will build up in this 'extremely well-ventilated room' then enter the van thru an open window on the closed slider door? When you see how little flow comes out of the exhaust, and how big the ventilation is,,,, it seems highly unlikely. The 6500 BTU heater does well to heat the closed-up van but you can't open the slider door and heat the awning room too. I think you will conclude immediately it's a waste of propane - and never try it again.
But anyway,,,WRT your question, you could get 2 inch flexible aluminum duct and affix it to carry flue gases farther away from the living area if the awning was erected during propex season. Might be able to stretch the aluminum duct longer than the 3-feet. You'll need a way to transport the fragile foil duct without squashing it. As far as the heat coming from the exhaust, I am using the full length of the propex duct included and by the time the exhaust reaches the outlet, it has already radiated most of its heat, to 90*F at the outlet. 90*F is less than human body-temperature. Aluminum ducting is not required - basically ANY hose you attach to it will survive.
Another way is to route the flue-gases elsewhere. You can do that but it's not easy to get across the bottom of the van to the other side on a Syncro, maybe easier on 2wd but I can't tellya. I don't know if the stainless steel flue can be extended at it's small diameter (appx 7/8"). I suppose it could be extended with a larger pipe such as the 2" aluminum. I elected NOT to simply exit it under the van (where it might waft upward into the van) and wanted it to blow away from the side with force. Then after install and firing it up, I discovered the exhaust gases don't exit with "force".
Hope this helps! _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:56 am; edited 2 times in total |
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jberger Samba Member
Joined: November 17, 2003 Posts: 2476
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:48 am Post subject: Re: Propex 2211 heater install under floor (many pics!) |
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Could I ask about road spray? Propex states in their documentation that although the unit is sealed and made from corrosion "resistant" materials it should be fully protected from road spray.
My experience with Wet and snowy\slushy roads is that the underside of the van gets plastered.. literally. Especially in line with the wheels. Even my drive shaft protection bars and shaft itself get coated with sand\salt and Ice. I would be extremely nervous having my heater hanging down there. Any long term feedback? |
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tarandusVDub Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2010 Posts: 1649 Location: Between Here and There
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Posted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Propex 2211 heater install under floor (many pics!) |
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Thanks Sodo! _________________ 1990 Syncro 16" DoppleKabine 2.1 DJ 112i
________________________
Sold: 1972 Bay Campmobile; 1984 Westy, base model, 2WD. |
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