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swhitcomb
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Floor Pans Reply with quote

Basically what he's saying is you have to clean the metal you are welding, and welding to. Otherwise all the crap melts and becomes part of your weld, ruining it.

Here's how it should look, although my welds aren't perfect either.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 7:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Floor Pans Reply with quote

swhitcomb wrote:
Basically what he's saying is you have to clean the metal you are welding, and welding to. Otherwise all the crap melts and becomes part of your weld, ruining it.

Here's how it should look, although my welds aren't perfect either.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Your using a gas welder correct? Mine is flux core so it's letting off its own gas. After I grind the paint off, I weld, remove the slag, and prime. If it's overlapping I use weld thru primer. I understand that I'm supposed to grind the paint off. Tommorow I plan to get the floors in on the driver side.
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swhitcomb
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:44 am    Post subject: Re: Floor Pans Reply with quote

Flux doesn't let off its own gas. The flux burns and uses up the oxygen.

You need to not just clean the paint, but any rust. The point he was mailing was that the pics you were showing, you had not done that.

Flux cored welding will always give poor results when welding on a VW. Especially with a welder that can be adjusted at all. You need .023 or .025 wire and .030 is as small as you can get in flux.
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:48 am    Post subject: Re: Floor Pans Reply with quote

This pic is old and I still don't understand where I haven't gotten rid of rust. I'm getting rid of it where I weld.
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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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KentPS wrote:
...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". Laughing

mukluk wrote:
He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane.
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swhitcomb
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:26 am    Post subject: Re: Floor Pans Reply with quote

67ctbug wrote:
Mine was worse than yours i think i have a picture.
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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

they were both rusted terribly so i just replaced them.


Here. These are the pics we were referring to.
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beetlenut
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: Floor Pans Reply with quote

67ctbug wrote:
This pic is old and I still don't understand where I haven't gotten rid of rust. I'm getting rid of it where I weld.


Since we haven't seen a picture of what your prepared surfaces look like before you weld, we have no way of knowing for sure if the surfaces are prepped well enough for welding. We see the after results with primer, and see the cold welds underneath and only have that to go by. I'd put the switch on the front panel to MAX, and play around with some well cleaned, well grounded scrap metal while varying the wire feed speed until you get good flat welds.
You mentioned you were blowing through. If you don't cut enough rusted metal away and get back into solid uniform steel, then when you try to weld to that old metal, even if it is cleaned well, you will blow through it because it is a different thickness and can't hold the heat like a thicker piece of metal would. Uniform metal thickness, clean steel, and enough heat yield good welds.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 12:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Floor Pans Reply with quote

I'll show you guys some pics of the prepped surfaces without paint and I'll switch it to max. I'll be home in a few so I'll take some. And what I'm burning threw isn't old, it's new Shocked .
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KentPS wrote:
...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". Laughing

mukluk wrote:
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Floor Pans Reply with quote

Here's what I do for weld prep.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Then I weld thru primer it.
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'73 914
'73 Dodge W200
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Go Cubs!
World Series Champions 2016
KentPS wrote:
...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". Laughing

mukluk wrote:
He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane.
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 3:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Floor Pans Reply with quote

One side in, not pretty, but I'm still going to grind it. In the future I'd use WW pans.
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_________________
'67 Beetle L41
'74 Westfalia
'69 Plymouth "Adam-12"
'63 Ragtop
'73 914
'73 Dodge W200
'72 Dodge Wrecker
Go Cubs!
World Series Champions 2016
KentPS wrote:
...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". Laughing

mukluk wrote:
He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane.
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beetlenut
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Floor Pans Reply with quote

I see a few good welds that look flat with good heat color around them so you're getting there! Another thing to consider if blowing through new metal, is that it has to be tightly attached to the piece you're welding it to, and in the case of the floor pans, you'll want to start the weld on the thicker metal first which is the lip below. That may require a bigger hole on the top piece of metal in order to start the stick on the bottom piece. If you hold the tip of the welder in the center of the hole, and just let the puddle build up until it flows to the edges of the top piece, you'll start getting better welds. You can also control the heat a bit by how far you hold the tip from the work piece. That's why practicing on scrap will help you dial in the welder before you actually work on your car.
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Wetstuff wrote:
... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again.
- Words to live by right there!

My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 5:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Floor Pans Reply with quote

beetlenut wrote:
I see a few good welds that look flat with good heat color around them so you're getting there! Another thing to consider if blowing through new metal, is that it has to be tightly attached to the piece you're welding it to, and in the case of the floor pans, you'll want to start the weld on the thicker metal first which is the lip below. That may require a bigger hole on the top piece of metal in order to start the stick on the bottom piece. If you hold the tip of the welder in the center of the hole, and just let the puddle build up until it flows to the edges of the top piece, you'll start getting better welds. You can also control the heat a bit by how far you hold the tip from the work piece. That's why practicing on scrap will help you dial in the welder before you actually work on your car.
I'll drill bigger holes on the next side. I try to just put the welder over the hole, but I think that's why it's getting so hot so I pull back to about a half to 3/4 inch of wire out. Sometimes I get good welds, sometimes not. It's really hit or miss with my skills sometimes. Now to sit down and watch the World Series. GO CUBS!!!!!
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'69 Plymouth "Adam-12"
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'73 914
'73 Dodge W200
'72 Dodge Wrecker
Go Cubs!
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KentPS wrote:
...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". Laughing

mukluk wrote:
He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane.
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2016 3:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Floor Pans Reply with quote

Here it is all done, if it wasn't raining the other side would be sealed. I may have filled a hole with the sealer Embarassed I feel like I should take the sealer off that place and re weld it. Here it is all welded
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

And sealed
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Here's where I filled a hole, it burned through the tunnel Shocked (in the orange circle)
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'67 Beetle L41
'74 Westfalia
'69 Plymouth "Adam-12"
'63 Ragtop
'73 914
'73 Dodge W200
'72 Dodge Wrecker
Go Cubs!
World Series Champions 2016
KentPS wrote:
...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". Laughing

mukluk wrote:
He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane.
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Floor Pans Reply with quote

Just messed with my welder, the new wire speed setting is 5! It leaves perfect welds and doesn't burn through. Just filled all my previous burn throughs. I think this is going to become my general, "why does my welder do this" type of thread along with floors.
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'74 Westfalia
'69 Plymouth "Adam-12"
'63 Ragtop
'73 914
'73 Dodge W200
'72 Dodge Wrecker
Go Cubs!
World Series Champions 2016
KentPS wrote:
...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". Laughing

mukluk wrote:
He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane.
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Keith
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2016 11:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Floor Pans Reply with quote

67ctbug wrote:
swhitcomb wrote:
Turn the heat up on your welder. Way up.

I can't Shocked all I can do is wire speed.
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Bought it for $35 on sale


God, my buddy bought one of these paperweights. I honestly think you could weld better using a few car batteries.

Keep an eye out on Craigslist for a good Lincoln Electric, Hobart or Miller welder with gas setup. The difference is beyond night and day.
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 04, 2016 4:13 am    Post subject: Re: Floor Pans Reply with quote

I do. I look daily. I welded with a Hobart ironman 230. It was so much better.
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...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". Laughing

mukluk wrote:
He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane.
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offshores
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 12:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Floor Pans Reply with quote

Did you apply any upward pressure under the pans to make sure they were actually welded to the flange? Like put a floor jack under there to make sure the tack weld doesn't just pop off? Welding thin sheet to that thicker flange can be tricky?
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67ctbug
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 1:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Floor Pans Reply with quote

I did not do that Shocked I guess I will though... I think they are all gonna pop off which means I'll just wait till I can use that Hobart.
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'74 Westfalia
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'73 914
'73 Dodge W200
'72 Dodge Wrecker
Go Cubs!
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KentPS wrote:
...or the PO envied the terrorists' bus in "Back to the Future". Laughing

mukluk wrote:
He's fine, just waiting for the dragon in winklepickers to move out of his lane.
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theKbStockpiler
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 6:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Floor Pans Reply with quote

From looking at your welds I would say you are having issues with the weld through primer displacing the flux gas.
The arc is starting and then being disrupted by the primer displacing the flux gas. After the flux gas is established around the pool , the arc is staring again on a (welding wire deposit) and not actually on a decent weld pool where the are force heated up the pool.
Paint will do the same thing. The only experience with weld through primer I have is with the sem brand. I don't think you can spot weld with it. It seems that you have to generate some localized heating around the weld pool to burn some of it off so it stops displacing the flux or shielding gas. With a continuous bead this is doable but not while spot/ manually pulse welding.

You really can't do a continuous beads with flux for anything under 18 gauge on a overlap joint. Flux core is mostly (FLUX) so you are not depositing metal and you are not cooling the pool either with the lack of deposited metal. Flux core has a lot more (ARC FORCE) which pushes the molten metal out of the crater making burn through considerably easy on thin metal.

I would get some scrap cleaned up and practice making a pool. Watch as the weld pool widens without moving the nozzle. let is spread out until it burns through a few times Watch as the red area around the circumference of the weld pools widens too. I good way do judge if you are at risk of (BURN THROUGH) is how far from the pool has been heated red.

The biggest mistake novices make is paying attention to the arc which does not directly reflect what the weld pool is doing. DO NOT LOOK AT THE ACTUAL ARC.LOOK AT THE POOL. When you use flux core with a low voltage it is difficult to see around the arc to see the weld pool. If you have a large weld pool you will have burned through so you have to have a small weld pool which is hard to see around the bigger arc.

You can do okay welds using fluxcore on thin metal using the multiple spot weld technique / (manually pulse welding) but it is easier if you are accustomed to do it the preferred way first and then learn how to break the rules later.The learning curve is almost non-existent.

I wanted to know what was possible with fluxcore welding because I wanted to be able to weld in and emergency if I ran out of shielding gas. I read all of the threads and guides that I could find first.I did one side of a jeep floor with all flux core welding 22 gauge to 19 and it looks pretty good. The 19 gauge worked as a heat sink for the 22 though.
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68IHscout
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 8:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Floor Pans Reply with quote

So on a 79 beetle ,to change the floor pans the body has to come off??
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beetlenut
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 12, 2016 10:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Floor Pans Reply with quote

68IHscout wrote:
So on a 79 beetle ,to change the floor pans the body has to come off??


Ideally, that's the case. I did mine both ways. To be exact, the body has to come off to cut and fit the new floor pans, go back on to line up all the body bolt holes so you can then tack the pans on, then come off for final welding. Of course by "come off" we're only talking raising the body off the pan by a foot or two so you can work. I did one side of my car without taking the body off though. On the other side, I had a better garage to work in, so I took the body off for that side. Depends on what you have to work with.
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Wetstuff wrote:
... I spend more time shaking it than directing it?! I get a pretty decent blast for 8sec. then have to shake it again.
- Words to live by right there!

My 74 Super rebuild thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6507104#6507104
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