| How much would you pay for a new Syncro transaxle? |
| A) under $5000 |
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32% |
[ 42 ] |
| B) $5000 - $8000 |
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32% |
[ 42 ] |
| C) $8000- $10,000 |
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17% |
[ 23 ] |
| D) $10,000 - $15,000 |
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8% |
[ 11 ] |
| E) Whatever it takes! |
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9% |
[ 12 ] |
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| Total Votes : 130 |
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| Author |
Message |
Syncrozilla
Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2004
Posts: 772
Location: Santa Barbara
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 Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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For such a small market anything under 10k is just not going to happen. Mendeola sells many hundred units yearly. The syncro market is not a growing market as they do not make the cars any more.
Many syncro owners have spent far more than that on a couple rebuilds. It's not that uncommon anymore for a quality rebuild to be close to 5k.
The real issue (which has already been pointed out) is space. It's just not possible to build the "dream trans" and have it fit under the stock tank and in front of the cross member. Once you start requiring such drastic modifications your market goes way down.
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9610
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 7:49 am Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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Many Syncro owners have spent $5k on crap rebuilds. 
If off-the shelf gearsets, shafts, shifting, R&Ps, etc can fit in the space required it could be feasible. If everything must be made from scratch it is not feasible.
A new OEM Aluminum casting run sounds feasible. A new case part focusing on the hotspot (4th gear & mainshaft bearing up high) is more feasible because it's small and not so detailed. But thats off-topic.
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'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17153
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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I talked with Elite Racing transmissions a few years ago at the runoffs about a Vanagon transaxle. At the time, they were interested and actually one of their staff had a T3. I never did follow up though. This would probably be overkill, but would be worth looking into.
http://eliteracingtransmissions.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/4XL250-6s.pdf
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Jon_slider
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:12 am Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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| pedrokrusher wrote: |
2- REBUILD WITH MUCH BETTER MATERIALS. |
this is why people pay extra for the SA aluminum housing
I agree that reusing old housings does not work well, but unfortunately, neither does the Aluminum housing
the problem is the small size of the pinion head, and the narrow size of the gears.
Both those factors limit the amount of pressure the tranny can handle, by increasing heat from added pressure.
Added pressure comes from 2 things. More power (motor upgrades), and more road leverage (larger tires).
Those two forces converge on the ring and pinion, increasing the pressure and creating more thrust to shove the pinion shaft forward.
| Syncro Jael wrote: |
| At some point installing additional components such as aluminum housings, bearing retainers, oiling plates, added oil cooling, better micron filtering, directed oil flow to critical locations, should begin to offset the added stress we are putting these transaxles through. |
unfortunately, bearing retainers, cooling, and aluminum housings, do nothing to change the small size of the contact faces on the R&P and gears.
so imo, putting lipstick on a pig does not change the fact that the syncro tranny is not able to survive a subaru 2.2, with 28" tires, and a van that weighs 1000 pounds more than GVWR
So… IF there is going to be a tranny that will work in a syncro, it needs to be engineered for the higher loads.
The subaru tranny comes to mind. Of course that really only works for an AWD, non locker, and no granny config.
imo, a stock syncro tranny is best mated to a stock syncro
once people try to turn a syncro into an expedition vehicle (heavier than GVWR, and with stuff hanging off the back, top and front), they will consume transmissions along the way.
| Sodo wrote: |
| Many Syncro owners have spent $5k on crap rebuilds. |
sour grapes
no amount of rebuilds, of any kind, will change the fact that the tranny was built for a stock configuration.
imo, if people insist on carrying stuff hanging off the back, on the roof, and the front, with stronger motors, larger tires, lifted, and want to keep up with USA speed limits, they are just going to keep consuming trannies.
These people would do better to buy a Sprinter or a Toyota
The syncro is an awesome vehicle, but its tranny is not up to the task of hauling so much gear as some people strap on to them.. at the speeds they want to go, with the added motor and tire pressures..
And NO, I dont think anybody can come up with a sycro tranny that can handle the "expedition" configuration..
I hope Im mistaken.
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MsTaboo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 4096
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 10:42 am Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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First off I would like to thank those who have brought real thought and consideration to this discussion. Maybe the Mods could go back and clean up some of the junk that has fallen in. (Moderator edit/note: Most of the junk has been removed.)
It seems to me that we don't need a transaxle that will handle 400+ hp. Even the most ambitious engine swaps have been in the 250hp range, so there's no need for a giant/super duty transaxle. Just something slightly beefier and made from more readily available parts. If the body needs some mods I personally would be willing to make those concessions.
If it would make it easier to develop I would be willing to lose the original shift linkage and go to a cable shifter.
As for those who question the wisdom of spending $10 grand on a new transaxle, the comparison to a paint job is apt. One is just cosmetic and the other is pure function. There are owners who will joyfully dump thousand$ onto their Syncro in accessories; an investment into the vehicles reliability and longevity makes sense.
Given modern engine swaps and a new transaxle there is no reason these great vans won't still be in use twenty years from now. With the continuing demise of parts and deteriorating rebuilds that future is less sure.
Another thing to keep in mind is that just a couple years ago some brand new Syncro transaxles were imported into the States from S.A. These babies sold out really fast at $5000! And they were just the same old lightweight box.
Repeat from prior post:
I personally find nothing wrong with the heavily modified and accessorized Syncros and wanna-be 2wd vans. It is merely extending the utility of these great vans.
I see nothing wrong with wanting a stronger engine/transaxle to enable the vans to keep up in traffic while carrying a load or towing a trailer.
At the time the Syncro was developed VW was already looking past the platform to the T4. They completely missed the 4x4 suv craze which started in earnest in the mid 90's so lost the opportunity to make the Vanagon a premier 4x4 van. They didn't even have a larger engine at the time so no need for a beefier transaxle. Also remember that European roads are so different than North America. There are very few highways where you can drive for ten hours at 70mph in Europe!
Yes, you can say just buy a big old American V8 van and load all your crap into it, but those vehicles have no soul! 
Let's try to work together to improve our Syncros!
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'90 Syncro Westy 3 knob w/Zetec
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dkoesyncro
Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2006
Posts: 983
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 11:36 am Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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I agree that the cost to market demand isn't profitable. Is anyone who has the resources to 're engineer the existing box up for the task? Gears, Sodo and Alika have in my opinion "know what it takes" others as well! These 3 have well documented experience here on the samba.
My transmission has 260k on it it still works, I believe it's original! My van had a documented history of receipts from og owner. I bought the syncro for its advantages of being an adventure machine. Where it's prior owner used it as a pavement pounder errands runners and family ski bus.
I don't expect it to last as I've done an engine conversion and plans to use the syncro for more play than pavement.
I'd invest into a quality 're tooled transmission. This seems more likely than a new designed transmission. |
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tjet 
Samba Member
Joined: June 10, 2014
Posts: 3533
Location: CA & NM
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Waldi
Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2014
Posts: 1752
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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| pedrokrusher wrote: |
| Waldi wrote: |
10k for a new build trans?
Seems you don't know what you ate talking about.
Buy a new car! |
Wow..with all your knowledge, thats all you can come up with...
Great...
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Yeah, with my bit of knowledge i can tell you, that you are living in a parellel unisverse, if you think you can construct a new gearbox espacialy selling them in USA.
Just imagine what happens if persons get hurt because the box will fail.
Did you ever hear something about product liability ?
What about spare parts ? Do you think the producer will hold them for you because we vanagon drivers are so nice ppl ?
You know what it costs to ingenier a new gearbox ?
I will blow now a number in the air: 10 000 000 $ or € doesnt matter.
I am sure you can get it for much more less in China.
Good luck with the warranty. |
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Waldi
Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2014
Posts: 1752
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 12:40 pm Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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| dkoesyncro wrote: |
I agree that the cost to market demand isn't profitable. Is anyone who has the resources to 're engineer the existing box up for the task? Gears, Sodo and Alika have in my opinion "know what it takes" others as well! These 3 have well documented experience here on the samba.
My transmission has 260k on it it still works, I believe it's original! My van had a documented history of receipts from og owner. I bought the syncro for its advantages of being an adventure machine. Where it's prior owner used it as a pavement pounder errands runners and family ski bus.
I don't expect it to last as I've done an engine conversion and plans to use the syncro for more play than pavement.
I'd invest into a quality 're tooled transmission. This seems more likely than a new designed transmission. |
Please do me and yourselfe a favor and rebuild your gearbox as soon as possible with good parts. |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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The VW Syncro is what brought me back to the VW marque after a 10-year absence. Such a perfect vehicle for the activities I enjoy.
It appears the Syncro is also about to bring me out of retirement .. NOT rebuilding transaxles (a local builder will be taking care of my backlog), but rather just providing high quality components that the rebuilders I know can rely on. I've received some enthusiastic support so far, even though they know my parts will cost more.
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9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
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dkoesyncro
Samba Member
Joined: December 10, 2006
Posts: 983
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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| gears wrote: |
The VW Syncro is what brought me back to the VW marque after a 10-year absence. Such a perfect vehicle for the activities I enjoy.
It appears the Syncro is also about to bring me out of retirement .. NOT rebuilding transaxles (a local builder will be taking care of my backlog), but rather just providing high quality components that the rebuilders I know can rely on. I've received some enthusiastic support so far, even though they know my parts will cost more. |
When can we expect a product line and a list of preferred builders? |
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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Still working on both. While this announcement is a bit premature, it seems people need to be assured now.
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aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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Chugach
Samba Member
Joined: November 22, 2012
Posts: 109
Location: Ak
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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I'm siding with Ms. Taboo on this, I understand the limitations of this idea, but this should'nt be unpossible- ( +I have never met a sand rail owner)
Question, those people who voted that they would be willing to spend less than 5 grand on a new, capable transaxle; How much are they willing to spend on a rebuild? and have they?
I have heard rumors recently of complete transaxle rebuilds/replacements approaching/exceeding 10k? this certainly causes me to dream of a better option- the 10k is'nt the problem, its spending 10k on an tired horse!
I have met more syncro owners that have never heard of the Samba, than ones who have- so this is most likely
a poll of a small group of uber obsessed/opinionated syncrophiles!
In Ak, I know of a few van owners who currently have vans in the garage with blown transaxles and other mechanical issues that are spending huge amounts on their vans-none of them are on the Samba, they just spend to get their vans back on the road |
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Waldi
Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2014
Posts: 1752
Location: Germany
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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Global economie is not a one way street.
If Monsanto (now Bayer) can/want sell gen foot to EU we can sell also rebuilded T3 gearboxes to USA.
Rebuilding a gearbox costs here from 800 to 2500 €.
If you pay up to 10k you must be stupid. |
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syncrodoka
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2005
Posts: 12006
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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| gears wrote: |
| It appears the Syncro is also about to bring me out of retirement .. NOT rebuilding transaxles (a local builder will be taking care of my backlog), but rather just providing high quality components that the rebuilders I know can rely on. |
That is a big step in the right direction to keep the syncro tranny builds legit. I would pay X% more for well made components that will last. |
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pedrokrusher
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2011
Posts: 654
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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| Waldi wrote: |
| pedrokrusher wrote: |
| Waldi wrote: |
10k for a new build trans?
Seems you don't know what you ate talking about.
Buy a new car! |
Wow..with all your knowledge, thats all you can come up with...
Great...
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Yeah, with my bit of knowledge i can tell you, that you are living in a parellel unisverse, if you think you can construct a new gearbox espacialy selling them in USA.
Just imagine what happens if persons get hurt because the box will fail.
Did you ever hear something about product liability ?
What about spare parts ? Do you think the producer will hold them for you because we vanagon drivers are so nice ppl ?
You know what it costs to ingenier a new gearbox ?
I will blow now a number in the air: 10 000 000 $ or € doesnt matter.
I am sure you can get it for much more less in China.
Good luck with the warranty. |
Can we remove this troll please?
We are just brainstorming here, getting ideas on the table...
You don't need to insult people just because they are open minded.
Gears just mentionned he has new stuff in the works!
Excellent!
What about you?
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Pedro
1989 vanagon Karmann Gipsy #652, TDI AFN
1991 vanagon westfalia conversion TDI ALH Silverfox
ex-1989 vanagon syncro passenger Syncrofox (Sold)
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gears
Samba Member
Joined: October 28, 2002
Posts: 4391
Location: Tamarack, Bend, Kailua
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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Pedro, Waldi is legit. I know this. Let's all get back to topic.
A custom SYNCRO transaxle isn't going to sell for $8,000. Probably closer to double that.
In the meantime, quality control and the cooling/oiling mods are the best we can do.
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aka Pablo, Geary
9.36 @ 146 in '86 Hot & Sticky
'90 Syncro Westy SVX
'87 Syncro GL 2.5
https://guardtransaxle.com |
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MsTaboo
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2006
Posts: 4096
Location: East Kootenay, British Columbia
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:43 pm Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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I'm not really surprised by the lack of support and outright hostility to the idea of an all new Syncro transaxle from someone who rebuilds the old ones for money.
They must have a fair amount of investment into the special tools and it's what they already know.
And I applaude efforts of people like "gears" who are working towards better parts for the existing box, rebuilds will always be with us, but the future is an all new transaxle.
As noted by other posters, there are many more Syncro owners out there than here on the Samba. When compared to the cost of a new vehicle that comes even close to the original Syncro, the expense of an engine swap and a new transaxle is still a bargain.
I wish I could win that lottery ticket, I'd fund the whole thing.
But let's get back on track. What improvements would be required? What are the main weak points that need addressing? Can elements of the old box be reused?
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Currently:
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Syncro Jael
Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2013
Posts: 2204
Location: Utah
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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Just some other options for a new mainshaft, ring & pinion, and main bearings would be great. The aluminum cases that I purchased could also be improved from what I hear.
I also think a complete engineered cooling / filtering kit for someone to purchase and install would be a great option instead of everyone building their own design. I still need to get mine to squirt on the main bearing and 4th gear. But my return hole is now on the drivers side up high.
Thanks Gears, I look forward to seeing your products. Soon??? 
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jackbombay
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2007
Posts: 2723
Location: Eastern Idaho
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| Posted: Thu Oct 13, 2016 2:56 pm Post subject: Re: Brand new custom Syncro transaxle |
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Very few of us have any idea what goes into making a new trans, Gears is one of them, I'd wager IdahoDoug's opinion would actually hold water as well.
I'm just dumb enough when it comes to this sort of stuff to know that I don't know, but if a flipped R&P kit from subarugears costs $1,900 for about half a dozen pieces of high quality precision metal we can sort of take a wild guess at how much a whole transmission would cost, right?
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