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Porsche 944 Brake conversion on 1303
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Dodgy
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:27 am    Post subject: Porsche 944 Brake conversion on 1303 Reply with quote

This is a topic that has been done and written to death maybe, but in reading the posts I can find about this conversion there seems to be a myriad of ideas and solutions people have done, and a range of useful (and useless) detail. I’m planning a slightly different route, so I thought I’d post what I’m planning to do, with some detail, pictures etc as I go on. Maybe those who have done this already can comment and pass on what they've learnt, or maybe it’ll help someone else who is researching information for their own conversion.

Some background: this is part of my 1303 rebuild that is detailed in my thread '75 UK 1303 Build Thread The aim for this car is to go ‘German Look’. I’m an Engineer by profession, so partly I’m interested in developments that could be made to this car that either weren’t available in the 70s, weren’t cost-effective, or weren’t aimed at VW’s target demographic to at the time, etc.

The brakes & suspension are a case in point. Many know that when Porsche started to develop the 924 they basically lifted the late Super Beetle front suspension and fitted it to the 924 wholesale. Then, over the years the 924 was further developed, more so when the 944 was introduced. So the suspension system benefited from a lot of engineering improvement and refinement, way beyond where VW took it for the 1303.

A couple of years back I purchased a full suspension assembly from a 1989 Porsche 944 (S2?). I know the later the donor car, the more hassles I will face fitting the parts (we’ll get to those). But the later suspension system does have some advantages.

And a further example about benefiting from new technology that wasn’t available when the Beetle was being made: the Porsche parts I have are from a sufficiently late model that they include ABS sensors & rings – so part of my plan will also be to add an ABS module into the braking system. Cool or crazy? We’ll find out!
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Dodgy
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:29 am    Post subject: Re: Porsche 944 Brake conversion on 1303 Reply with quote

So step 1 is THE PLAN

1) I have 1989 components, so I guess they are the ones I’ll be fitting...
2) I intend to keep the VW struts, as the dampers / springs available are better tuned to the lighter front end (924/944 being front-engined of course)
3) I already have some (4cm) wider front wings, so have a bit more room to fit everything
4) To get ABS fitted & working (how hard can it be...)
5) NO POLY BUSHES! I don’t want the hard ride, noise & squeaking issues, thank you!
6) Won’t be stupidly low, it ceases to be fun quite quickly.
7) Wheel radius to be roughly the same as standard VW, rim size bigger to give clearance for brakes etc (and aesthetics), but not so big the tyres are just elastic bands!
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Dodgy
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: Porsche 944 Brake conversion on 1303 Reply with quote

Step 2 is MEASURING EVERYTHING

I have a professional CAD system at work, so I though a good starting point would be to knock up a model of the standard 1303 suspension, assess the geometry, then change over to the Porsche stub axle / wheel and see how everything fits...

Here is the model of the standard 1303 front corner assembly, with 15”x4.5J wheel and 155R15/82 tyre at nominal standard ride height:

(Sorry these images are so big, I couldn't find a way to resize them in this post)

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Front view showing the suspension geometry with negative steering radius (important for stability under braking conditions) – I measure this with the standard suspension at around 0.5mm. Not much, but it’s a benchmark.

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Side view showing the caster angle – I measure this at 2.8 degrees and the caster trail at 10.7mm

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Here’s what the 1303 stub axle looks like

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And here’s what the 944 stub axle looks like:

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The main differences are:
• The lower balljoint stud is 17mm vs. 15mm for the VW. This is easily fixed by specially made conversion balljoints available from Kerscher in Germany
• The lower balljoint is tilted forward slightly – not enough to cause any particular issues
• The track rod end fits from below, whereas the VW fits from above. Just inverting the tie rod will mean they are at a significant angle to horizontal at normal ride height and will result in ‘bump steer’. This is easily fixed by drilling out the hole in the steering arm and fitting bushes that reverse the taper direction so that the track rod end is inserted from above
• The steering arm is straight, whereas the VW is turned in. This means the track rod needs to be about 20mm longer each side. I think from an initial measurement this adjustment can be made within the standard rod adjustment thread. If not, custom longer rods are available for this conversion, or the existing rod can be lengthened
• The steering arm is shorter; depending on how it’s measured it is between 10% and 20% shorter than the VW. This means (a) the steering action will be quicker and (b) the steering effort will be heavier, compounded by a smaller steering wheel. I don’t know if this will be significant until I drive the car... But I haven’t read any accounts of people who have done this conversion who report this as an issue. So I’ll not worry about this for now.
• The flange that fits to the strut is 18mm think, whereas the VW is 20mm. This can be simply fixed with a spacer, which will also help correct of some of the other geometry changes
• The strut bolts is are 2x M12 at 60mm pitch vs the VW 2x M10 at 53mm, and the angle between the hole centres to the hub face is different. If this isn’t compensated for the wheel will have massive positive camber. Not attractive or a pleasant driving experience!
• The Porsche camber adjustment is via the top strut flange bolt, the VW does not have camber adjustment, apart from some clearance in the strut holes and the eccentric bolt at the inner end of the track control arms

Having considered the various options, my plan is to modify the 944 stub axle to fit the standard VW strut. In this way I can resolve the problems of the hole pitch and angle in one go.

Here’s what the modifications look like (red areas):

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• Steering arm drilled out for ‘bump steer kit’
• Material removed from top edge of strut flange
• Material removed from 2x sides enlarging strut flange face area
• Material added below top hole
• Original top hole plugged and new hole drilled slightly lower (approx 50% overlap) – this also corrects for the difference in angle between these hole centres and the hub face

Next decision is wheel / tyre size. I think 17” rims should fit fine, they are bigger than the rims originally fitted to 944 (16”) to give clearance for brakes and will leave enough radius to allow for a reasonable size tyre

I found this excellent online calculator here http://www.wheel-size.com/calc/ and found that a 17”x7” rim, fitted with 205/50R17 tyre would give about the same rolling radius as the original VW wheel.

With these modifications, this stub axle will fit onto the 1303 nicely, as shown in this overlay (VW in blue, hybrid VW/Porsche in Green)

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The relative positions of the VW and Porsche hub centres are as follows:
• Porsche 12.5mm forward (wheelbase extended by 12.5mm, depending on any changes at the rear rear axle)
• Porsche 13mm outboard (front track increased by 26mm, depending on wheel width / offset)
• Porsche approx same height above ground (because in this instance wheel radius is matched to VW)

Because the strut flange bolt hole centres are positioned lower on the 944 stub axle compared to the VW part, the strut spring cup sits 10mm lower in the new assembly. So the front of the car will be lowered by around 10mm following the conversion.

Building this model I was surprised to find that the diameter of the Porsche brake disc is almost identical to the VW disc (VW278mm Porsche 282mm). So much for ‘big Porsche brakes’! But the Porsche discs are vented which is an improvement over the solid VW discs.

To maintain the negative steering radius I was able to play with the wheel offset in CAD and assess the effect, also measure the spring clearance (with standard diameter VW springs) and tyre projection. Here are the results:

Offset (mm) # Steering Radius (mm) # Spring clearance (mm) # Tyre projection (mm)
40 # +9.2 # 22.6 # +22.7
45 # +4.2 # 17.7 # +17.7
50 # -0.8 # 12.8 # +12.7
52 # -2.8 # 10.8 # +10.7
55 # -5.8 # 7.9 # +7.7

Looks like either 50mm or 52mm offset will work well,55mm would be the maximum workable offset but clearance to the spring is getting tight.

Front view shows how the negative steering radius is maintained with an offset of 50mm

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Side view shows that the caster angle is unchanged at 2.8 degrees and the caster trail is reduced by 0.4mm, not a significant difference. The strut angle changes by 1.7 degrees, well within the range that the compliant upper mount can accommodate. (The 2mm spacer required to pack out the Porsche strut flange will be fitted to the rear face of the stub axle flange, which reduces the strut angle change.)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Enough measuring, time to get started!
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'75 1303 (current project) owned since 1989!
'72 Squareback - full resto completed 2008 - now sold
356 Speedster kit, completed 2005 - now sold
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Dodgy
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: Porsche 944 Brake conversion on 1303 Reply with quote

So to start I took the VW strut apart and found that in the double-skinned construction of the stub axle clamp only the outer holes are round and 10mm. The inner holes are 12mm and the upper hole is slotted – the same as the Porsche setup! Hmmm, 70’s parts-sharing methinks - but it works for me! Some quick work with the hand file and the holes are opened up to take the Porsche bolts and the upper hole is slotted, the upper Porsche eccentric bolt even has a raised area on the VW strut to work against. Bonus!

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I’ve purchased the custom balljoints...

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...and pressed them into my nicely blasted & painted track control arm (getting the old balljoints out was an adventure! But they pressed out in the end)

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And that’s as far as I’ve got, up to now. Next step will be to make some of these mods drawn in CAD to the physical stub axle and see how it fits together for real!
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'72 Squareback - full resto completed 2008 - now sold
356 Speedster kit, completed 2005 - now sold


Last edited by Dodgy on Sun Oct 16, 2016 7:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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volkylover
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 4:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsche 944 Brake conversion on 1303 Reply with quote

Very interesting, sir, I'm hooked already.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 15, 2016 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsche 944 Brake conversion on 1303 Reply with quote

Ok, I wrote PMs to you before finishing your posts. I shouldn't have. You already have the ball joints. I believe your solution for the upper hole is quite good and I may rethink my decision to return to 1303 spindles. I have been unable to resolve the camber adjustment issue, even with the use of two "crash bolts" per side. All I'm able to get is 0 degrees camber and would like to be able to get at least 2.5 degrees of negative camber.

I will be following your progress.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsche 944 Brake conversion on 1303 Reply with quote

Cleaning up the (very) rusty 944 parts...

Here is what I started with:
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As an example of how bad it is, here is what is left of the brake cover plate:
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Compared to the new one: Shocked
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Needle scaled:
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Sand blasted:
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Primed, waiting for the modifications:
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Making progress!
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsche 944 Brake conversion on 1303 Reply with quote

Looks good. Keeping an eye on this
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2016 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsche 944 Brake conversion on 1303 Reply with quote

Any updates?
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:56 am    Post subject: Re: Porsche 944 Brake conversion on 1303 Reply with quote

944 stub axles have been welded and currently being machined, pics and update coming soon...
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 9:07 am    Post subject: Re: Porsche 944 Brake conversion on 1303 Reply with quote

If I remember correctly, the 924/944 front suspension had Golf(Rabbit) lower control arms, which are nothing like what the 1303 had. Maybe the knuckle was similar, but stating that the front suspension as a whole was lifted from the 1303 to the 924/944 seems a bit wrong.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsche 944 Brake conversion on 1303 Reply with quote

ps2375 wrote:
If I remember correctly, the 924/944 front suspension had Golf(Rabbit) lower control arms, which are nothing like what the 1303 had. Maybe the knuckle was similar, but stating that the front suspension as a whole was lifted from the 1303 to the 924/944 seems a bit wrong.


True, the lower control arm is a triangulated part with two inner mounts, not a straight bar using the ARB as a trailing arm. To be honest I'd ignored that component as it is not relevant to the 1303 conversion.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsche 944 Brake conversion on 1303 Reply with quote

The REAR suspension of the 924/early 944 is lifted directly from the 1302/03. The front, as you've noted, is more like a Rabbit.

That said, Rabbit AND 944 front struts bolt right in on a 1303 with a change of upper strut mounts.

I have custom made coil overs based upon Mk1 GTI housings on my car, bolted to 944 spindles. Everything bolted together save for the issues mentioned by the OP of this thread. I bought Kerscher ball joints in order to use the 944 spindles, however, I'm contending with the camber issue, also noted above. I plan to mod the spindles like the OP to get the correct geometry back.

It should be noted, the OP used 944T (951) spindles because that's what was available to him, however, I have the n/a 944 spindles, which are actually a better fit (the tang that attaches the spindle to the strut is the same width as 1303 spindle tang as opposed to the 944T tang being 2mm narrower).

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsche 944 Brake conversion on 1303 Reply with quote

Dodgy--

Is there any chance you can post a pic of the 944 spindle superimposed over a 1303 spindle to demonstrate exactly what material needs to be removed?

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2016 7:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsche 944 Brake conversion on 1303 Reply with quote

H20SB....you need to slot the top bolt hole of the 944 spindle so that you can create camber. The 944 has a camber adjustment on the strut/spindle. You will can gain some extra camber here (but might not be enough). Get the camber + bushings from topline and that should get you very close. The last option would be a set of rabbit crash bolts. These are strut to spindle bolts that are a dealer part that were used to gain additional camber.

Your best best would be camber plates and the camber+ bushings to get your camber under control.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:04 am    Post subject: Re: Porsche 944 Brake conversion on 1303 Reply with quote

H2OSB wrote:
Dodgy--

Is there any chance you can post a pic of the 944 spindle superimposed over a 1303 spindle to demonstrate exactly what material needs to be removed?

H2OSB

Let's see if my idea works first... If so, I'll post a drawing of the modifications.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:08 am    Post subject: Re: Porsche 944 Brake conversion on 1303 Reply with quote

eviloval wrote:
H20SB....you need to slot the top bolt hole of the 944 spindle so that you can create camber. The 944 has a camber adjustment on the strut/spindle. You will can gain some extra camber here (but might not be enough). Get the camber + bushings from topline and that should get you very close. The last option would be a set of rabbit crash bolts. These are strut to spindle bolts that are a dealer part that were used to gain additional camber.

Your best best would be camber plates and the camber+ bushings to get your camber under control.

The top hole of the 944 strut / stub axle clamp is already slotted, the 1303 strut is easily modified to match. If my CAD is correct, with the modified 944 stub axle no crash bolts will be required and the camber adjustment will be in the (new) 'normal' range.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:59 am    Post subject: Re: Porsche 944 Brake conversion on 1303 Reply with quote

Yeah, I have two crash bolts per side as well as the Topline camber bolts. Also, my coil over were made from Rabbit GTI strut housings specifically to get the factory slotted top hole. All of these get me zero camber with the 944 spindles. Since I plan to use the car for autocrossing events, I would like to be able to get about 2 degrees of negative camber, thus I'm following this thread regarding the spindle mod Dodgy is doing.

If the mod works well, I may try it on 924 spindles, which use Beetle front bearings and 15mm ball joints. If a suitable caliper can be found, they would make a good spindle to get discs on the front of a 1303.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:15 am    Post subject: Re: Porsche 944 Brake conversion on 1303 Reply with quote

When I did my conversion I had to grind away part of the meat of the 944's top spindle to allow the spindle and strut to have a camber adjustment. Without grinding the spindle you will have no adjustment short of the crash bolts. After this it was able to get my wheels from looking like this \ / to this | |. But that was with all adjustments completely maxed out. Was looking into camber plates but was never able to find them (did find them later on when someone got a set on GermanLook's forums).

Interesting idea with moving the top hole of the spindle. I don't know if your car has a rack and pinion vs a steering box. But, to get the extra length needed when I did my conversion I switched over using the tierods from a R&P car (mine has a steering box). My biggest issues were the fact that I'm using Topline Maxx struts instead of the 944's. So, my struts don't have a slot for adjustment (well....they didn't out of the box). Not having a US alternative source for the 17mm balljoints. And the fact I'm keeping all of this under stock width front fenders. In the end it all came off in exchange for a custom hub and 1302 front suspension.

But, I kept all of the components for my next car...just in case I could find a way to make it work. So, please keep this topic updated Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 1:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Porsche 944 Brake conversion on 1303 Reply with quote

Heh, I did the exact same thing with the R&P tie rods. Really not a good idea to just screw out the stock tie rods, as you're left with very few threads. If you cannot find factory R&P tie rods, Lanner Khan sells them (www.veedubengineering.com)

Evil, any chance you could post a photo of your spindle mod (btw, do you live in the BayArea, or east bay? If yes, you can tell me in PM). I feel like I get a lot of movement on my camber, but I only can get it to l l and I want / \. At least my car is drivable as it is. I'm not ultra concerned about the negative roll radius designed into the 1303 suspension by VW, but I wouldn't hate it if I were to get it back with Dodgy's spindle mod. Ideally, I would love if I could get the 944 spindle to behave like the 1303 so I could do away with one pair of crash bolts per side.

I'm with you, Evil, I detest that I must order ball joints from Germany to run the 944 spindles. One of the many reasons I'm trying to figure out a way to use 924 spindles. I was originally going to use them on my son's 1303 and had a "flip it" kit installed but had difficulty adapting the caliper ears from the 924 spindles to the ears on the BMW 320i calipers I'm using on his car. Lotta story with the 924 spindles, but I have hope I can find a way to use them. For now I'm committed to the 944 spindles since I bought the damn Kerscher ball joints.

H2OSB
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