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Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions
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YumaTim
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions Reply with quote

I have 2 Chenowth frames. One of the ID tags has: V4RS1W.. Is this the model number? The number above in only 4 numbers which I believe is the serial number. Am I thinking correctly? I have had it since about 1986 or so. Any value to it?

Thank you for any help.
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jimmyhoffa
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:12 am    Post subject: Re: Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions Reply with quote

I ended up driving the car all summer on the highways and byways of the Greater St. Louis Metro Area, and everything pretty well went off without a hitch! Engine and trans probably have 5K miles on them or so, and I haven't noticed anything questionable. That's saying something, since I built them both and I'm pretty questionable. Cool A few hundred of those miles were very rev-limiter-ey and aggressive, so that's good to have under the belt.

I do hate drum brakes on the street, at least as my primary binders (rear). They're totally adequate off-road but when you stud VW drums and torque a wheel to them, they go out of round for sure, and you can absolutely feel it.

I had put off finishing my Neal brake kit with Wilwoods all summer, so I got my local machine shop to Blanchard grind the rotors. He did them in the middle of the snowstorm last week and turned them around in a few hours. I also found a local vendor for Carbotech brakes, so they got pads in for my Wilwoods.
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I set about tearing down the Type III drum setup off the back of the car. Since it was 0 degrees for a week, I had all the time in the world to do it right.

Milling machine is an excellent modular brake line bending jig plate! Twisted Evil
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Out with the heavy and lumpy:
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In with the light and stoppy: (I'm not arguing about a 15% reduction in unsprung weight for way more stopping power and a stronger center hub spline!! Cool
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I've got that Big Disk Energy on deck for the ole' Chenowth!
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1974 Chenowth 2RL #1244 Street Legal
My other car isn't ridiculous.


Last edited by jimmyhoffa on Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:57 am; edited 2 times in total
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jimmyhoffa
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:21 am    Post subject: Re: Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions Reply with quote

I also had a coupon for one of the UMP vendors so I finally treated myself to the UMP left-side 3" intake box for an IDF carb, to complete my UMP intake from tip to tail.

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My parents got me a CB black box for Christmas so now I'm running programmable ignition from a locked out German 009 as a trigger. Continuing to tune with that.

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oprn
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions Reply with quote

The only time I have had issues with stock type 3 drums going out of round was when a tire shop severely overtightened the lug bolts. I broke 2 lug wrenches getting then loosened!

It looks like you are running a center mount carb with no manifold heat? How is that working out?
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2021 9:30 am    Post subject: Re: Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions Reply with quote

The heat-less centermount is naturally not the best, but surprisingly not the worst! I have the CB low-rise on there now, the smaller 1.5" tubing size compared to my old 1.625" steel manifold actually helps a lot. I think the fact that the casting bolts to the warm engine case actually helps keep the worst of the frosties away, though I don't drive the car much below 50 degrees.
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2022 10:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions Reply with quote

Time for a prep! I slapped the car together a few years ago and drove it as much as I could and as hard as time allowed, and I think 10k dual sport miles is enough to call a "shakedown" Very Happy I also did some pretty violent stuff to the trans in Moab, and I wanted to go through it and make sure nothing cracked. It's also getting a new stroker engine.

It took about 4.5 hours to get it from running to a roller with no drama at all.
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It took about another hour to get the beam off and the rear arms and torsions pulled. I drug it into the garage and flipped it over and started tabbing for the skid plate I made with my friend's CNC press brake. Fortunately I've been lazy on finishing my friend's engine for the Chenowth he just bought off Al Shelton, so it got the nod for mock-up.
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I had held onto a 4x8 sheet of 1/8" 6061 aluminum which now looks really smart because it would be about twice the price now. So I VERY CAUTIOUSLY plasma trimmed it to the car, as my old floor was a road sign.
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Next up was the trans. Everything looked good, but the front mount was loose and that creeped me out a little bit. I swapped to the Weddle-sourced 4-bolt aluminum one. I 3D printed a template and ripped the mount out and it worked absurdly well.
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Then, I got rid of my expendable income for the next several months.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions Reply with quote

I wanted to gusset the spring plate pocket to the lower frame rail since I've seen a few frames with damage/cracking there, plus I needed a skid plate mount provision there. I rolled those ideas into one idea and made another little plasma template. (This time tapping into my plentiful resources of extra aluminum, tin snips and impatience.) I cut it out of some extra .125" wall square tube I had left over from making my fence posts.
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The templating made cutting two near-identical ones really easy. I fitted and welded them and I that that really worked out. I was mindful of alignment with the bodywork so it will look aesthetically tidy.
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 17, 2022 4:45 pm    Post subject: Re: Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions Reply with quote

A little more media came out of the teardown that I didn't get edited and release until last night. I think this came out pretty sweet and is under 2 minutes long, so not a huge attention span ask. (Well, maybe for the TikTok kids.) FULL TEARDOWN TIME-LAPSE!

Link

I also made a nice mount tower for my Fortin shifter, got my trans mounts CNC plasma cut because I was feeling lazy. I had to CNC machine a little U-joint yoke setup since the shift rod is at such an angle. I'm not worried about the angle in the least, since the nosecone and the Fortin shifter both have linear bearings on their sliding shafts.
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Just in case this ends up making sense, I had my associate CNC plasma me some SS tabs. I'd love to use SS tabs for grounding reasons and I know you can successfully TIG SS to mild steel with 309L filler rod, but I'm starting to wonder why nobody does this...
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dustymojave
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 18, 2022 5:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions Reply with quote

Ever heard the term "Overkill"?

Or maybe "gilding the lily"?

Cool

Such issues have never been problem for my cars. But then I don't live in the rust belt.
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jimmyhoffa
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 7:17 am    Post subject: Re: Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions Reply with quote

I definitely have suspicions that the lily is getting a tad gilded. I'm trying to rein it in a bit and keep this moving and not get hyper-fixated. I am ALMOST ready for sandblast.

Also, I owe a public apology to Dusty who was ready to welcome me to his area of the country. I flaked out on him AND lost his private message to me in my torrent of classified responses and my inbox being full briefly, yet he is still willing to offer advice to me here. I had intended to make it all the way to Lake Los Angeles / the coast with the car this past summer, but due to the unexpected cancer and death of both my dog and a family member, ended up chopping the trip up and making it back home a week sooner than planned. I am hoping I can get the car back together and rip out west even deeper this summer. This is why I can't get all distracted with silly stuff like stainless steel trick tabs and show car wiring. Embarassed


The last big hurdle I had been putting off is to diagonally brace the torsion housing. Since my frame horns are entirely supported by my bellhousing truss connectors that tie it to the rear cage crossbar, I didn't feel too much guilt cutting into the frame horns a bit where they connect with the torsion housing tube. Since I have that sort of "kafer bar" arrangement, the frame horns aren't subject to the cantilever loads like they would be in a stock beetle setup.

I am honestly not in love with how it came out but I can't really put a finger on it. I am going to work on it again tonight and figure out how to cleanly cap or plate in the open end of the frame horn and tie it neatly to the brace tube you see mocked up there. I would love to see examples of how other people have done this now that I'm 75% of the way there. Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions Reply with quote

Wow! I can only wish I had your machining skills and access to equipment that you have.
Your builds are great and with all the little details that you add goes beyond anything I do.
The shift coupler and the rest of the linkage details and using a Fortin shifter are amazing.
I don’t know if you installed a conversion Bus gear carrier that converts to a type 1 shift nose cone, hockey stick, and shift rails. I done it on several Bus transaxles, both 002 and 091. It really improves shifting.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 26, 2022 4:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions Reply with quote

Joseph, that means a lot coming from you, you're one of my go-to posters when I need to see an example of a clean way of doing something. I have actually done that bus box trick with the conversion housing. I think it's just that one hole you have to put next to the pinion bearing for the shift rail tail that is longer on the bug. I wanted to angle the trans down a bit, so I had to stick with the bus nosecone and relay linkage to get the clearance over my Sway-A-Way king kong adjuster - though we both agree the bus box, even in it's finest shape, shifts like a dump truck.

I trudged forward and trimmed and fitted and I think I'm feeling good about it. I can't really think of a better way, so... I think we're going to roll with it.
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They clear the seat and there's room for a firewall to be fitted well, tight up against the tubes.
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 28, 2022 7:20 am    Post subject: Re: Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions Reply with quote

I settled on this and welded them in after a dinner last night with the old owner of Butler Built buggies in St. Louis. (Also the winner of class 12 2019 Baja 1000 and multiple Mint 400s) His feeling was that since I couldn't bring the diagonal down to the torsion tube like you're "supposed" to, boxing in that lower sort of rectangle and then running a diagonal from the top of the B pillar to the top of that lower box structure will be very solid.

generic FIA cage guidance as well as multiple other sanctioning bodies seem to give you that "all critical tube intersections within 100mm of each other" rule, which I'm well within on my diagonal and torsion housing bracing. Even if you measure in the most pessimistic ways possible, I have very tidy intersections. SO. Sandblast and paint it is. Loading up all the parts tonight.
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PostPosted: Mon May 02, 2022 7:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions Reply with quote

1st off...You do NOT owe me any sort of apology. I know full well that sh...shtuff happens.

I myself am having issues with a return bout with Fuc-ancer. While trying to get my doctors all talking about the same subject and on the same page, I had to pass up a trip to visit family in Arizona for a memorial for a cousin who just passed away because they can't decide when I'm going to get imaging done to ascertain what all the cancer is affecting. Dealing with a bureaucracy can be frustrating. Plus we've lost 4 dogs in 5 years to cancer and one to old age (20 years). So I get all that you've dealt with recently.

Meanwhile I really enjoyed your video of taking that trail at Moab with your Chenowth. We went there in '19 with old friends and were supposed to be 4 wheeling in their 1942 Jeep, but my friend came down with shingles just as we arrived. So he wasn't up to manhandling that old Jeep. And the cockpit is too small for me. My buddy (Best Man at our wedding 40 years ago) had polio when he was young, so his legs are short, plus WW2 era Jeeps are pretty small in the 1st place.

I suggest closing off the front of those yokes with 16ga. sheet steel.

Does your buggy have bolt in straps to the motor mount? My Chenowth has 1.5" brace tubes to the middle of the yokes just forward of the axles as well as straps to the mount. That's actually about the same as my Hi Jumper has.

When it comes to roll cage structures, I have some issues with FIA's views. I agree that roll cage and other structural members SHOULD join adjacent to each other. But they require gussets that cause stress risers at the end of the gusset. They use gussets to make junctions VERY rigid, when they are less inclined to break at the ends of the gussets if they are allowed to flex a little. So I prefer plate gussets of a similar thickness to the tube wall with a radiused hypotenuse.

All this considered, those braces are on the list of modifications to our Chenowth. Along with raising the roof of the cage (probably a complete cage replacement and re-design), a new shoulder bar and a lateral diagonal.
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PostPosted: Wed May 04, 2022 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions Reply with quote

Dusty it's a shame to hear that. Keep us posted, no question we're all wishing you the best.

I did make nice stout tubes down to the bellhousing mount. I also replaced the bar they connect to above the bellhousing with .120" wall DOM because I've seen a lot of cars with unintentionally curved bars there. Surprised

Before blasting I closed off those horns and welded the braces over and to them, and it came out pretty well. I think this will do.
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I'm definitely opposed to overly gusseting cage connection points. The only ones I have are on the roof halo basically, and they're the curved hypotenuse style you referred to.
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PostPosted: Thu May 05, 2022 6:26 am    Post subject: Re: Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions Reply with quote

While we wait for the blast, I got some pictures of the stuff I made to block off threads, bores, and delicate components for steel grit blast and I hope to re-use them for paint as masking blocks.

First I took care of the trailing arms, and used my rusty tweaked backing plate bearing caps as sacrificial blasting caps. I machined nylon bushings to tap into the deep back bore and a stepped one to protect the front and fit into the bearing cap.
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Next up, I blocked the threads on the spring plate caps and center torsion adjuster, as well as the frame horns. Had to turn some little spacers to get it right.
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Last, a little delrin step bushing set and threaded rod to keep the steering shaft bearings safe. It was easier to protect them than get them out for sure!
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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 11:53 am    Post subject: Re: Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions Reply with quote

Drip-feeding stuff as I get it uploaded here: I took these pictures with an actual digital camera so I just remembered I had them and it jogged my memory on another point! I loaded up my mom's Civic with the 12' trailer and the frame and some miscellaneous parts, since my truck was borrowed out at the moment. Yes I live in a jungle.
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I showed up at the sandblast shop, and the guy that runs it goes "Oh a dune buggy frame, like a Chenowth?" (Remember we're in Missouri so that's a little weird.) Turns out he's been in business long enough that he lived through the short-course craze here in the Mississippi river valley in the late 70s and early 80s, where there were dirt tracks all around, and land just outside the city was cheap or free. This is a time well before I was born. He's never actually had a buggy but he has sandblasted a few hundred of them over the course of 40 years. He has an old box with assorted bolts he used to plug VW frames, but he was excited he didn't have to dig it out since I was fully plugged and masked. Away it went! Into the blast abyss.
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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2022 4:29 am    Post subject: Re: Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions Reply with quote

Not many around now that know what these cars are. I just got a comment 3 days ago from someone I thought would be old enough to be in the know. "Oh, I like your home made Buggy!"

Ah, no, it's a Chenowth, I was tempted to say but I just let it slide and smiled.
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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2022 12:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions Reply with quote

That's OK. I get bugged when somebody gets on here who has a clearly home-built buggy who calls it a Hi Jumper or a Chenowth. Just because it's a tube frame buggy, they think that it IS one of those brands.

Ah well... Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Thu May 19, 2022 6:35 am    Post subject: Re: Given (probably) a Chenowth 2lw, a few vintage buggy questions Reply with quote

Speaking of getting bugged, I was at a car show looking at a Huracán and I thought to myself, "Well, my car is at the blast shop and I have a free evening, so what if we put a little Lambo style on the old Chenowth?" I was pretty bugged that there wasn't even a touch of fake carbon fiber on the car, since I have used plenty of REAL carbon fiber in my work over the years. I needed to tidy up and lengthen some wiring anyway, so why not throw $29 of 3M DI-NOC dry carbon film at the dash and see how it looks?

I also bought some weird definitely-not-radioactive glow-in-the-dark Europium powder from Bob Lazar (Yep, THAT Bob Lazar - United Nuclear) and some acrylic craft resin to fill in the letters on my dash plates so they glow aqua-colored. Apparently his glow material is pretty crazy.

Before:
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LAMMMBOOOO STYLEEEE!! Laughing
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Ok that's pretty sick, I think that's a keeper.
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