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1500 Cylinder Head Differences
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easy e
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 3:34 pm    Post subject: 1500 Cylinder Head Differences Reply with quote

I'm trying to learn about 1500 heads for the engine restore on my June '65.

The heads below are not listed in oacdp: http://www.oacdp.org/5867part/043.png

In poking around the parts list... and the forums... I didn't see much consolidated info.

Here's what I found so far for split bus era...

211 101 371 A - 1,5 l 31 kW (42 PS) [50hp] Bus: 10/62-10/64 big rib
211 101 373 - -- 1,5 l 31 kW (42 PS) [50hp] Bus: 10/64-7/65 big rib
311 101 373 A - 1,5 l 32 kW (44 PS) [53hp] Bus: 8/65-7/67 fine rib

I'm not sure what is meant about "rib" being big/fine. Maybe some webbing?

I've seen two different 211 101 373 styles of casting.
One with more material on deck & one with just little crescents around the perimeter (no 'meat' by the bolt holes). Row three of pics, column 2 & 3 show it best.

The earliest 1500 head has:
Round boss
Different casting adjacent to the intake port, no central web (between the two bolt holes nearest the intake port, on the outside).
Stepped fins by the spark plug holes.
Extra notch in the fins by the lower air deflector.
Looks like 9 fins by the cylinder (top side)
Looks like 5 full fins that run full length on the bottom side.

The later 1500 heads have:
Looks like 8 fins by the cylinder (top side)
Looks like 8 fins that run full length on the bottom side.
Thick aluminum for under the head studs (adjacent to each spark plug)

Pics of the first two part numbers below.
Any input appreciated. Can click on image to open up in new window... then one more time to enlarge.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 7:06 pm    Post subject: Re: 1500 Cylinder Head Differences Reply with quote

Here are the heads from the original engine of my August 64' Westy, they are two different deck styles of the early heads with the round bosses. 211 101 371 A :

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'm curious about the difference as well.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: 1500 Cylinder Head Differences Reply with quote

On the heads with the round rocker bosses do the studs go all the way through like this?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

If they do then stay away from those as they are the .012 and .080 tappet ones. They always leak and are weak. I didn't think any 1500 heads had those ever.

The style in your far right column always seemed the best overall for my abuse.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 11:15 am    Post subject: Re: 1500 Cylinder Head Differences Reply with quote

Just noticed the 63-65 heads (42ps) have smaller valves & 66 -up (44ps) heads are bigger vavle.
Anybody... please stop me if I start screwing up on this info.

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2016 12:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 1500 Cylinder Head Differences Reply with quote

BarryL wrote:
On the heads with the round rocker bosses do the studs go all the way through like this?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

If they do then stay away from those as they are the .012 and .080 tappet ones. They always leak and are weak. I didn't think any 1500 heads had those ever.


The head on the left in my pic above (one with more "meat" on the deck) does have the studs that go all the way through, the other with the "crescents" does not. Both have the round rocker bosses. I'm guessing it was probably replaced at some point?
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:37 am    Post subject: Re: 1500 Cylinder Head Differences Reply with quote

oakman wrote:
The head on the left in my pic above (one with more "meat" on the deck) does have the studs that go all the way through, the other with the "crescents" does not. Both have the round rocker bosses. I'm guessing it was probably replaced at some point?

It's not good to have one of each style. VW authorized replacing the long stud type by using a short stud that fits the round boss tapped larger. Then you go back to .004" gap (now.006" of course).

VW came out with the next set of heads with the short stud in the round boss and the .004" sticker on the shroud. Early on with the 1500 heads the valve angle geometry (not the seat/valve cut) was increased. All the heads after that required rocker bearing blocks, rockers, and pushrods that were alighned with the new goemetry. The blocks say "top" or are a "C" shape, the rockers have nich marks, and the pushrods have knurls.

If you have the where-with-all to get square boss heads they are the best.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 9:48 am    Post subject: Re: 1500 Cylinder Head Differences Reply with quote

You are awesome Barry. You should probably have a coffee mug that says this Very Happy

Thank you for sharing.
This is what's so awesome about The Samba (and it's seasoned, contributing members).
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 12:43 pm    Post subject: Re: 1500 Cylinder Head Differences Reply with quote

BarryL wrote:
oakman wrote:
The head on the left in my pic above (one with more "meat" on the deck) does have the studs that go all the way through, the other with the "crescents" does not. Both have the round rocker bosses. I'm guessing it was probably replaced at some point?

It's not good to have one of each style. VW authorized replacing the long stud type by using a short stud that fits the round boss tapped larger. Then you go back to .004" gap (now.006" of course).

VW came out with the next set of heads with the short stud in the round boss and the .004" sticker on the shroud. Early on with the 1500 heads the valve angle geometry (not the seat/valve cut) was increased. All the heads after that required rocker bearing blocks, rockers, and pushrods that were alighned with the new goemetry. The blocks say "top" or are a "C" shape, the rockers have nich marks, and the pushrods have knurls.

If you have the where-with-all to get square boss heads they are the best.


Thanks for the info Barry, I will see if I can find a good matched set of the later heads for this engine.



easy e wrote:
You are awesome Barry. You should probably have a coffee mug that says this Very Happy

Thank you for sharing.
This is what's so awesome about The Samba (and it's seasoned, contributing members).


X2!! I love this site and all the great folks who contribute.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 08, 2016 7:15 pm    Post subject: Re: 1500 Cylinder Head Differences Reply with quote

Sheesh, thanks, but not awesome; still trying to learn from you guys, you're the one splitting atoms. A lot of knowledge/help I believe comes right from this awesome site. Some stuff I learned the hard way thinking I knew what I was doing. Some stuff is in the Bentleys, some from VW manuals, some from awesome mechanics that made me clean their parts for them so I snooped at what they were doing. Some info is wrong, too, I'm sure.

The valve angle geometry supposedly happened in June '63 with head 113 101 371A. Don't know if it was a 1200 to 1500 change but there appears to have been a previous 1500 round boss long stud head with the old lesser angled valves and valve train. Maybe that was 211 101 371A ?

Slotted rocker bearing support on round boss slot facing down was February '64 and head 211 101 351A.

Slotted rocker bearing support turned to slot facing up September '64 on square boss (I think) head 211 101 353.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: 1500 Cylinder Head Differences Reply with quote

crud

i just put on these heads...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


the casting off the one vw logo looks older

they have different deckstyles as shown above

leave them as is or change??
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: 1500 Cylinder Head Differences Reply with quote

If they aren't cracked, have a fresh valve job, good spark plug holes, the rocker studs are the same on both heads, and you have the correct valve train, then they should last a long time if your engine is running cool. My opinion.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 2:58 pm    Post subject: Re: 1500 Cylinder Head Differences Reply with quote

Apparently the "big rib / fine rib" mention, up in the first post... was the switch from 14 to 19 fins... found it in Progressive Refinements.

Here's a basic summary table. (I don't know enough about rockers to correctly add some of Barry's info. above.)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I was searching online for the correct heads for my '65... and had zero luck using the VW part number (for the head assembly)... I only found heads when using the casting number. Not surprised though... if I picked up a random part & was going to list it by part number... and there's one easily visible... I'd most likely use what I could see, and show.

Every online place I've seen calls out a 1500 valve according to the late style... and calls the earlier valves 1300 or 40hp.

I have an NOS assembled head (211 101 353) coming my way. I'll report out on valve size.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: 1500 Cylinder Head Differences Reply with quote

easy e wrote:
I was searching online for the correct heads for my '65...I have an NOS assembled head (211 101 353) coming my way.

Will you "CC" both your heads when you get two just to make sure all is even?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: 1500 Cylinder Head Differences Reply with quote

Yes, will check cc's... just to check. I have two NOS coming. One complete, one bare. Since heads are eventually prone to cracking... I decided to bite the bullet & source some correct ones vs re-doing some with potentially a bazillion heat cycles under their belt.

Side note:
I was doing a little reading about hardened valve seats/unleaded gas.
Don't know if that'll be an issue for me yet. Noticed no one makes valve seats for the earlier/smaller 1500 heads. I gather all post '66 or '67 heads had hardened seats. I think maybe one (inlet or outlet?) pre-'66 had a hard seat & the other wasn't?
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:34 pm    Post subject: Re: 1500 Cylinder Head Differences Reply with quote

[quote="easy e"]I was doing a little reading about hardened valve seats/unleaded gas.
Don't know if that'll be an issue for me yet. Noticed no one makes valve seats for the earlier/smaller 1500 heads.


If you can get me the dimensions of your seats, I'll look in my pile and see- I bought a "rit road" of seats at a yardsale full of vw stuff- maybe there's a surprise for you.

VW did experiment with stellite seats- but you could only use a hard seat grinder to dress them as the new way cutters left a bad taste- then they tried sodium filled valves and 9mm valve stems but to no avail- the valve heads kept popping off poorly tuned hot running vws. so now -seems- like its 46* valve seats and stainless valves all around- (T4 excepted).

very nice job on the pics and the comments so far.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: 1500 Cylinder Head Differences Reply with quote

Here's pictures of the 311 101 373 A heads

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2016 11:26 pm    Post subject: Re: 1500 Cylinder Head Differences Reply with quote

Regarding valves/seats... from the Gene Berg site...
----------------------------------
First, "ALL" factory VW air cooled heads from 1967 and later with the hard chromed stem valves can run unleaded fuels just the way they come from the factory. "ALL" VW heads (add: from 1967 and later) have steel intake seats, hardened steel alloy exhaust seats, brass guides and tri-metal exhaust valves which have hard chromed stems.

Older VW engines, prior to 1967, do not have the hard chromed stem exhaust valves. However, they do have the same basic seats and guides.
----------------------------------
So, now to see if there's any hard chromed stem exhaust valves in pre-'67 size (30mm). Maybe I'll give Berg a call.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 1500 Cylinder Head Differences Reply with quote

karmanniak wrote:
crud

i just put on these heads...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


the casting off the one vw logo looks older

they have different deckstyles as shown above

leave them as is or change??

Aside from the deck styles... it looks like you have one short stud head and one long stud head.
The 63-67 Bentley discusses it some on page M-12. The picture in my copy is not too good... but I found a pic on a Japanese site that shows the difference a little better.

The "metal tag" asterisked (*) in the second head below, is a clip that they put on the rocker shaft, to be able to tell what kind of stud it was (for valve adjustment specs)... with clip = new short stud... since you can't see the stud type with rocker assembly / tin installed.
All you could see was the if it was round or square.
When the clip was installed... they'd also put the 0.004" valve adjustment sticker on the fan shroud.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I've seen two styles of the early valve adjustment sticker... one pic is from one on an early '65 bus & the other is, I believe, a pic of an NOS sticker.
I think the 2nd "NOS" sticker is from later production... as it more closely resembles the 0.15mm / .006" 1972+ decal.

Part no. 311 100 177
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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:56 am    Post subject: Re: 1500 Cylinder Head Differences Reply with quote

Should there be dialog about the new Chinese single port heads? There are Brazilian single ports, too. I'd like to try the Chinese but don't want to be the Guinea Pig.
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: 1500 Cylinder Head Differences Reply with quote

I could be wrong, but I think the late (311xxxxxx) cylinder head is 1500 or 1600 application. So, if the other alternatives are meant to match it... I don't see why discussing them would be off topic. Might as well incorporate all relevant info...

Alternative would be to create an "aftermarket 1500 cylinder head differences" thread... but that seems like info might get tend to get lost in the trees.

Bring it Barry!
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