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horrible and poor tire wear
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Tom Powell
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:06 pm    Post subject: horrible and poor tire wear Reply with quote

Long story. I need help and recommendations.

I bought an 87 Vanagon in Oregon and drove it to the East Coast and back to SoCal. The PO had done a 2 lift and put on new tires. Possibly he did not do a wheel alignment, but I found some paperwork. The front tires were horribly worn after I got to SoCal. I replaced them and had an alignment done. The tires have CIP1 spacers and I want to replace those with solid spacers from T3. I pulled a front tire to measure the spacers and noted that the new tires are wearing poorly after a SoCal, Utah, Tahoe, SoCal trip and another SoCal, Tahoe, SoCal trip. Damn. I measured the CIP1 spacers at 14.5mm. I have T3 15mm spacers in my shopping cart. Ill order them, install them, switch tires front to back, and get another alignment. Attached are photos of the spacers on one wheel and vernier scale, old/new tire with horrible wear, alignment specs, wheel, new/new tire with poor wear.

Aloha
tp

CIP1 spacers and vernier
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


old/new tire with horrible wear
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


paperwork with purchase
may or may not be after PO 2' lift and new tires
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


SoCal alignment after new/new tires
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


wheel and tire outside
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


wheel and tire inside
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


poor wear on new/new tire after SoCal alighnment and ski trips
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 4:28 pm    Post subject: Re: horrible and poor tire wear Reply with quote

Man, that sucks! Assuming nothing is worn or loose in the front end, the tire wear looks like it is probably caused by excessive toe out and possibly some positive camber. If the caster is way, way off, it could be contributing too. The only fix is going to be a quality alignment...which can be hard to get done these days.
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crazyvwvanman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: horrible and poor tire wear Reply with quote

Why are such thick spacers being used?
What is the width of those rims?

Mark
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: horrible and poor tire wear Reply with quote

crazyvwvanman wrote:
Why are such thick spacers being used?
What is the width of those rims?

Mark


EDITED for additional information and questions

The spacers and wheels were on the vehicle when I bought it. Not sure on how to measure the width of the wheel with the tire on it. Maybe I need to make a set of giant wooden calipers.

I think the story behind the vehicle is that the PO wanted a BIG look and put on the 2" lift and huge tires. The grill and sliding door got dented and some engine repair was needed. The wife got fed up with the expenses and the vehicle got sold to me.

I had a PM that suggested leaving the front wheels on instead of swapping front to back before having an alignment done. This would give the alignment people a better indication of the problems causing the wear.

Should I use thinner spacers? I don't know the reasoning for using 14.5mm spacers by the PO.

Aloha
tp


Last edited by Tom Powell on Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jimf909 Premium Member
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: horrible and poor tire wear Reply with quote

GW 16" wheels and 215/65 tires. I've got those (with 215/60 tires) and don't need spacers. Do they become necessary when lifting it 2"?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 5:56 pm    Post subject: Re: horrible and poor tire wear Reply with quote

jimf909 wrote:
GW 16" wheels and 215/65 tires. I've got those (with 215/60 tires) and don't need spacers. Do they become necessary when lifting it 2"?


I don't know if lifting requires spacers, but I assumed that they were needed for the offset of the non OG wheels.

For their 16" wheels the GoWesty site says: "They have the correct bolt pattern and offset to mount without any modifications. No longer studs, special hardware, or wheel spacers are required."

The OG lug bolts the PO used were too short and did not thread all the way into the hub. I replaced those with longer lug bolts from T3.

Perhaps the offset on these wheels is greater than OG or GW wheels and that is why spacers were used.

Perhaps the 2" inch lift makes the vehicle less stable and the spacers were used to widen the track to compensate.

I don't know much of anything for sure. I ASSuME. I'm going to start digging into the PO paperwork and look for wheel receipts.

Aloha
tp
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 6:35 pm    Post subject: Re: horrible and poor tire wear Reply with quote

Here's a photo of my spare 16" GW wheel. Perhaps the markings are helpful.

Yep, they're both 16" x 7.5" but it's hard to confirm the offset (ET)...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 18, 2016 7:45 pm    Post subject: Re: horrible and poor tire wear Reply with quote

Quote:
Perhaps the offset on these wheels is greater than OG or GW wheels and that is why spacers were used.


This is exactly the case. The wheels you have are the 38mm version of those wheels and spacers are required to fit them onto a 2wd. With 15mm spacers, the effective offset becomes ET23 which is the same as the other 16" version of the ASA/Tire Rack Mercedes replica wheels. While typically you would only need 10mm spacers for those wheels to correct the offset to 28mm, the fact that you have 2" lift springs means that you most likely have upper ball joint spacers too. Upper ball joint spacers reduce the tire to upper control arm clearance so thicker spacers are required.

The wheel spacers have nothing to do with the extreme tire wear that your are experiencing.
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Last edited by Christopher Schimke on Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:43 am    Post subject: Re: horrible and poor tire wear Reply with quote

Post a picture of the upper control arms to confirm you have the spacer needed for the 2" lift.
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Tom Powell
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 9:34 am    Post subject: Re: horrible and poor tire wear Reply with quote

Steve M. wrote:
Post a picture of the upper control arms to confirm you have the spacer needed for the 2" lift.


Here're the photos:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Aloha
tp
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 11:28 am    Post subject: Re: horrible and poor tire wear Reply with quote

Yes, you do have upper ball joint spacers in place.
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 5:47 pm    Post subject: Re: horrible and poor tire wear Reply with quote

The offset of them wheels will not alter the positive toe, nor will will it change the positive camber.

Too much of either will chop up them tires pretty quick.

Deal with that first.
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Tom Powell
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 6:15 pm    Post subject: Re: horrible and poor tire wear Reply with quote

Thanks TK.
The spacers that were on there were two on each side, 14.5mm total. I don't like the fact that they are a "universal fit". I think that they could "hang" during installation and cause an imbalance. I just ordered a solid 15mm spacer for each side from T3. When they get here, I'll put the T3 spacers, front wheels and tires back on and go for a talk with the alignment folks.

Aloha
tp
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:20 pm    Post subject: Re: horrible and poor tire wear Reply with quote

Personally
I'd leave the chewed up front rubber on , then let the front end guy look at the hell of a job he did for you.

When he gets the alignment dialed in right, then rotate them to the back.

I'd flip the tires over on them wheels.
Get the chopped up side to the inside.

Try and allow the tires to wear flat.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 10:34 am    Post subject: Re: horrible and poor tire wear Reply with quote

Update and new questions:

I got the solid spacers from T3 and replaced the CIP1 spacers on the front wheels. I noticed that the socket went deeper into one side than the other when the socket was on the shoulder and the lug bolt was fully torqued. WTF I then checked the socket depth on the rear wheels and it was different side to side also. Do I have two sets of wheels instead of four matched wheels? With the same wheels I might expect a difference front/rear, lug bolt/lug nut, but not side to side. I'm going to start digging through the PO paperwork and see if all the wheels were bought at the same time. That might be a clue. Maybe the next step is to pull all four wheels and inspect them for thickness at the lug hole. Or do I have two sets of wheels with different offsets?

Right Front
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Left Front
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Right Rear
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Left Rear
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Aloha
tp
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Christopher Schimke
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: horrible and poor tire wear Reply with quote

There are so many versions of that wheel by different manufacturers that having two different sets does not surprise me. The ones you showed in your first set of photos is definitely the ASA Type 8 wheel. If the wheel offsets and sizes are the same left and right, it is not a factor in your tire wear issue. However, to ensure that the wheels are mounted safely, you will want to check the thickness of the wheel through the lug hole as shown in the photo below (blue arrow). This is important since it determines how much thread engagement you have for a given bolt/stud length.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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Tom Powell
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:24 pm    Post subject: Re: horrible and poor tire wear Reply with quote

Thanks for the input Chris:

The first set of photos I posted was only the left front tire. Both front tires were wearing poorly. Most likely due to alignment. I think the next step is to pull both front tires and check the wheel thickness at the lug bolt hole, your blue line. However if the wheel thickness was different left/right wouldn't that be the same as different offsets? And would that affect proper alignment? I only have two jack stands. Even if I buy another pair I don't like the idea of the car in the air with no wheels, only four jack stands. After a bit of thinking, different offsets alone would not cause the socket depth problem. It looks like I'll be pulling all four wheels and measuring. I'll drop the spare also to see what it looks like.

I checked the PO paperwork and could only find a shop bill for mounting tires onto wheels and balancing. Both the tires and wheels were supplied by the customer. More to follow.

Aloha
tp
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: horrible and poor tire wear Reply with quote

I pulled the front wheels and measured the wheel hub thickness. They were different right/left. This resulted in different offsets, more/less meat for the lug bolts and different socket depth. Possibly incorrect alignment.

Right front:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Left front:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The next step is to buy more jack stands and pull the rear wheels and measure them.

Aloha
tp
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levi
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 1:48 pm    Post subject: Re: horrible and poor tire wear Reply with quote

The one looks like it says et48, hard to tell in the photo, what about the 2nd pic, does it have the et stamped in the back ?

One of the pics you posted at the top of the thread looks like et38
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 26, 2016 3:02 pm    Post subject: Re: horrible and poor tire wear Reply with quote

Right front ET23
Left front ET38

Went on my bicycle to get jack stands. Ordered more jack stands from Amazon. They'll be here in a few days and I'll pull the rear wheels and check them. How can a FLAPS not carry jack stands?

Aloha
tp
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