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Tobias Duncan
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Lithium Aux Battery Reply with quote

10 dollars an amp hour is still more than I am willing to pay.
I may do some research and make my own. If I do, I will post results.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2019 10:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Lithium Aux Battery Reply with quote

jimf909 wrote:
I was wondering about LiPo amp requirements given the ability to discharge them up to 75% compared to about 30% for lead acid batteries.


Kind of, yes, but they don't work exactly like that. Most good LiPo auto batteries will put out all of the Ah they are rated for. So, if you buy a LiPo battery rated for 100 Ah, you get 100 Ah. They are able to do this because they have built-in smart controllers that cut off the juice when, for example, the battery has used up it's rated 100 Ah, however, this has not taken the battery itself down to zero.

Check out this video around 17:44 they talk about it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s64CuK5Yy_o&frags=pl%2Cwn
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 6:16 am    Post subject: Re: Lithium Aux Battery Reply with quote

Tobias Duncan wrote:
10 dollars an amp hour is still more than I am willing to pay.
I may do some research and make my own. If I do, I will post results.


It is for sure an investment that should pay off ~10 years.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Lithium Aux Battery Reply with quote

shagginwagon83 wrote:
Tobias Duncan wrote:
10 dollars an amp hour is still more than I am willing to pay.
I may do some research and make my own. If I do, I will post results.


It is for sure an investment that should pay off ~10 years.


Think about how well a 3 year old laptop or phone battery holds a charge. I wouldn't expect to get 10 years out of the new tech.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Lithium Aux Battery Reply with quote

iPhone? Maybe not. But companies like Tesla and Audi are counting on it.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 4:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Lithium Aux Battery Reply with quote

So I am curious what actual battery chemistry people are using.
I am assuming most have the LiFePO4 stuff because most of the other lithium chemistry have totally different max charge voltages and I can tell you that it is tricky finding the parts to charge them properly from any source.

I am trying to build a 16.8 volt LiMnO2 battery using some old Nissan leaf cells.
This is essentially a 4S arrangement.
A 4S arrangement in LiFePO4 is only 14.4 volts max.
No one makes a proper charger for my chemistry.
I have worked out a way to charge at home but charging by solar or with a vehicle alternator is a whole different animal.

Anyway I am rambling.

I just think there needs to be some clarification in battery chemistry.
I suppose, technically, all of these are lithium ion batteries but LiFePO4 behaves very differently than other lithium ion batteries and you would have to be nuttier than peanut butter to use any of the lithium polymer cells for a house battery.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Lithium Aux Battery Reply with quote

vwhammer wrote:

No one makes a proper charger for my chemistry.
I have worked out a way to charge at home but charging by solar or with a vehicle alternator is a whole different animal.


Alternator to inverter to your home charging setup to your house battery?

It's certainly not the most efficient way to do it, but its better than not charging at all.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Lithium Aux Battery Reply with quote

I know that charging electric bicycle and motorcycle batteries with solar without going through an inverter is a pretty tough nut to crack. The chargers are pretty sophisticated and since there is not much market for DC chargers , no one seems to be making them.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Lithium Aux Battery Reply with quote

vwhammer wrote:
So I am curious what actual battery chemistry people are using.
I am assuming most have the LiFePO4 stuff because most of the other lithium chemistry have totally different max charge voltages and I can tell you that it is tricky finding the parts to charge them properly from any source.

I am trying to build a 16.8 volt LiMnO2 battery using some old Nissan leaf cells.
This is essentially a 4S arrangement.
A 4S arrangement in LiFePO4 is only 14.4 volts max.
No one makes a proper charger for my chemistry.
I have worked out a way to charge at home but charging by solar or with a vehicle alternator is a whole different animal.

Anyway I am rambling.

I just think there needs to be some clarification in battery chemistry.
I suppose, technically, all of these are lithium ion batteries but LiFePO4 behaves very differently than other lithium ion batteries and you would have to be nuttier than peanut butter to use any of the lithium polymer cells for a house battery.


What do you mean proper charger for your chemistry? The Victron Solar controller you can set parameters that can accommodate your battery. You can download the app for free, and try a 'demo' of the product you are interested in. You can look at the modifiable parameters in the settings.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Lithium Aux Battery Reply with quote

Tobias Duncan wrote:
I know that charging electric bicycle and motorcycle batteries with solar without going through an inverter is a pretty tough nut to crack. The chargers are pretty sophisticated and since there is not much market for DC chargers , no one seems to be making them.


I'm not sure, but would something like this work?

https://battlebornbatteries.com/shop/sterling-powe...d-charger/
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:05 am    Post subject: Re: Lithium Aux Battery Reply with quote

jackbombay wrote:
Alternator to inverter to your home charging setup to your house battery?
It's certainly not the most efficient way to do it, but its better than not charging at all.


This method may work for my smaller 16.8 volt 50 amp hour battery.
However, with the smaller inverters that you can use in most vehicles you would have to I drive around for a couple hours to charge it.

With my big battery (25.2 volt 250 amp hours) you would have to drive around for 15 to 20 hours.
You could get a high output alternator and install a dedicated circuit to run a much bigger inverter but you are still going to have to drive around for a while to charge the big battery.

shagginwagon83 wrote:
What do you mean proper charger for your chemistry? The Victron Solar controller you can set parameters that can accommodate your battery. You can download the app for free, and try a 'demo' of the product you are interested in. You can look at the modifiable parameters in the settings.


Do you have a model in particular that I might look at?
Mornigstar also has a controller that is "adjustable to be compatible with lithium ion batteries".
However, after digging hard into the user manual, I finally came across their idea of making it compatible.
More or less you can set the battery voltage and disable the float charge but it still simply follows a charge profile like its charging a lead acid or LiFePO4 battery.
This method is not good for any lithium ion chemistry other than LiFePO4 and even that is questionable.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:23 am    Post subject: Re: Lithium Aux Battery Reply with quote

I really don't knoww hat you people do to run down the batteries soo much that you need $1ooo batteries.

I've been using my ASI for 15years.. it has a 1979 era 12v/120v fridge..
it has a propex for those cold days/nights.. and we use it as we travel extensively. I have no solar system, though that would be nice.
I run 2 Walmart group 27 deep cycle batteries and they last me 5~6years unless I do something stupid.. it's not them alone, my starting battery is tied in too. no separator, and differing battery type/ages..
the only time I come close to low battery is about the 4th day of sitting at the beach in summer with fridge keeping food cool.
fwiw most of my other travel is roadtrips which have me moving every day or so anyways..
for my peace of mind I do carry a quality jump pack, but that's usually used for camp lighting or other people's jumps and sometimes inflating a tire.


sure if you are going to camp/sit in BAJA or the desert for days on end.. well then solar should be sufficient to keep up with normal batteries and normal food chilling needs.

just IMO alot of this is project bloat, fixing an imaginary need.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:19 am    Post subject: Re: Lithium Aux Battery Reply with quote

danfromsyr wrote:
I really don't know what you people do to run down the batteries soo much that you need $1ooo batteries.


Oh we don't need $1000 batteries.
We want them because the internet says we want them.

Ok I lied.
I do need them.
I need the big battery because I intend to run a couple of high power items and plan to be off grid for 3-5 days.
As such I have sized my batteries and solar accordingly.

You, of course, do not need them and as such do not have them and how presumptuous of you to assume no one else needs them. (My bad British accent and sarcasm are tough to hear in text so, for the record, I'm jus' playin' so don't be mad)

As I also mentioned I have a much smaller aux battery to use for many of the same things you mentioned.
The batteries in my small set up only cost me $144USD and I think I have another $150-200 in the other parts so I can charge it from a 110v AC source.

I am still sorting out the solar charging, as I also mentioned earlier, but so far I only have about $100 in that.
I did get a deal on my panel and it has yet to be seen whether or not my cheap charge controller will actually work with my set up but its a start.

I may have to spend a couple hundred more to get a solar charge set up sorted but I am still not into it for a whole lot of money.

Has it been easy?
Nope.
Will it all work?
Eventually, yes. (fingers crossed)
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2019 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: Lithium Aux Battery Reply with quote

I camp in the baja all winter. I might be on a beach for two weeks and the sun this year has been on and off.
Also remember that its still winter down here and will low angles of sun and short days, you do not get anywhere near 100 percent out of your panels so on a cloudy day you can run low on power and risk having food spoil.
Between fridges, computers, heaters, fans and lights , those amp hours get eaten away pretty fast.
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 11:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Lithium Aux Battery Reply with quote

danfromsyr wrote:
I really don't knoww hat you people do to run down the batteries soo much that you need $1ooo batteries.

I run 2 Walmart group 27 deep cycle batteries and they last me 5~6years unless I do something stupid..



Part of the fun of a $1,000 battery is not keeping afloat with battery power, itís keeping afloat with a battery thatís half the size/weight and smart enough to keep one from doing something stupid. At least thatís the attraction for me when my current batteries fail.

Why would a battery in these days ever let us do something stupid? Iím so tired of attending to dumb lead-acid batteries.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:15 am    Post subject: Re: Lithium Aux Battery Reply with quote

Weight was a major factor for me. My 200 AH battery bank weighs 60 pounds. I try to go light as often as possible in my Westy.

Battle Born is doing a great job of introducing new form factors which allow more flexibility in placement. Space is a premium in these small campers.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:34 am    Post subject: Re: Lithium Aux Battery Reply with quote

Let's just assume you calculate that you calculate you need 120aH of usable battery. I bought one Group 29 (I can't remember) that has 114aH. However, I should only drain that to 50%.
So I'll need two - 228ah total, to provide me with 114aH without any charge.

2x Group 29 batteries for $200
114aH Useable
Case Size: 1667.25 inches ^3 | 13.00" x 6.75" x 9.50" x2
Weight: 124 pounds; (2x 62 Pounds)

1x LiFePO4 150aH for $1,540
120aH Useable
Case Size: 1191.3 inches ^3 | 19.0" x 6.6" x 9.5" Tall
Weight: 44 Pounds;

So the lithium is roughly 70% size and 35% of the weight compared to regular deep cycle.

Lets look at long term cost, assuming 2 years deep cycle, and 10 years lithium. These numbers are hugely biased, however I'm assuming you replace deep cycle early due to rapid degrading, and needing that total 120aH.

$200 x 5 = $1000 lead acid
$1450 x 1 = $1450 lithium.

Maybe once the price point of a 150Ah is $1000, I will jump on board. Oh I forgot to mention this price analysis does not include any of the specialty battery monitoring that is needed/recommended for prolong lithium battery life.

Source:
https://www.arkportablepower.com/blogs/news/54925381-deep-cycle-lifepo4-vs-lead-acid-pros-and-cons

Quote:
Pros

    Long life span (5-10 years) vs lead acid (1-3 years), depending on depth of discharge and assuming that the cycle limit doesn't kill the battery first
    Longer cycle life, as LiFePO4 batteries last 1,000 to 3,000 charge and discharge cycles, compared to similarly sized lead-acid batteries, which can range from 200 - 1000 cycles (again, assuming depth of discharge is within recommended limits for both battery types).
    LiFePO4 batteries are less susceptible to problems caused by depth of discharge...a LiFePO4 battery can be dropped to 20% of charge without long-term damage. Most lead-acid batteries lose capacity or cycle life if they're discharged more than 50%.
    Lighter than lead-acid batteries.
    Arguably, LiFePO4 batteries are more environmentally friendly than lead acid.
    Very safe - the odds of a "thermal runaway" (aka battery fire) are very low. The same can not be said of other lithium ion chemistries.

Cons

    As mentioned, LiFePO4 batteries are costly.
    LiFePO4 batteries are hard to find. Most must be purchased online.
    Susceptible to damage via overcharging (it's very important to use a charging system that's designed for LiFePO4 batteries if you want to maximize their life).



Quote:
Which Battery Should You Get?

Assuming that both batteries are in the budget, the question of which to buy really comes down to a handful of decisions:

Do you need to reduce weight? A DieHard Marine 100ah group 31 deep cycle lead-acid battery weighs in at 75lbs. A similar capacity LiFePO4 battery from Stark Power is 28lbs. In a racing application, 47lbs could be an important difference.
Do you need more than 50ah of battery capacity between charges? A lead-acid battery functions best when it's discharged less than 50%. If your lead acid battery has 100ah of capacity, this translates to 50ah usable capacity "limit", at least if you want to maximize battery life. An LiFePO4 battery can go up to 80% depth of discharge without compromising life span (80ah, using our 100ah battery example), so it's better if you need more power between charges.
Do you need to draw a lot of current for a short period? A LiFePO4 battery is more effective at delivering a large amount of current over a short period than a lead acid battery. If you need a battery that can power a 40 amp device for two hours straight, LiFePO4 is the way to go. Most lead-acids - even if they're rated at 100ah and discharged to 20% - will fail that requirement, as their max rated capacity is based on a slower current draw.
Is the battery hard to replace? If you have an ArkPak, the answer is probably no. But if you're mounting a deep-cycle battery in a place where it's difficult to replace, a LiFePO4 battery is a better option. All things being equal, it will last 2-3 times longer than a lead acid with same capacity in terms of charge/discharge cycles, and 3-5 times longer in terms of actual life span (years of function).
Do you have a charger designed to work with LiFePO4 batteries? Most of the battery chargers you can buy at your local Wal-Mart or auto parts store are "bulk" chargers, meaning that they're good for getting a dead battery back to a functional level (so you can get your vehicle started), but not at all good for LiFePO4 batteries. In fact, a standard bulk charger will ruin a LiFePO4 battery very quickly. You need a charger specifically for LiFePO4 batteries if you want them to last.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 12:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Lithium Aux Battery Reply with quote

None of the money I spend on my old Westy is economically justified. Vehicles are depreciating assets. Period. If anything, itís for recreation and a planned expenditure that my wife and I make every year for enjoyment. It is in the budget and affordable. I couldnít care less about this making economic sense. For everyone who cares how much I spend on this silly toy, I just donít care. Itís my money, after all.
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 5:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Lithium Aux Battery Reply with quote

With traditional lead acid, you only really get to use 25% without doing damage ,so a 200amp hour battery gives you only 50ah
Also when battleborn says 100ah, that means you get to use all of it ,not 30% less.
This changes the calculations considerably.
So the 100ah battleborn replaces four 6volt lead acid golf cart batteries.
Can someone who knows this stuff better check my math/facts?
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2019 6:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Lithium Aux Battery Reply with quote

Yes.
Generally with standard lead acid you generally do not want to discharge more than 20%
Deep cycle batteries say they can do 80% but at that number the battery will not last long.
50% is a good number for deep cycle batteries.

Typically with most lithium batteries you can run them until they stop running things but generally an 80% dod is much better for battery longevity.

With that said, you would need two to four times as many lead acid batteries, depending on the type, to get the same capacity as a single lithium battery.

And the lithium will last at least twice as long if not 3 times as long.

You may see where I am going with this.
Short term, yes lithium is more expensive but in the long term you start to save with lithium.

I suppose I should also bring up that it will also be less than half the weight and size.

I have a 50 amp hour LiMnO2 battery that weighs 16lbs and is roughly the size of a sheet of paper and about 3 inches tall.
Lets just assume I use it to 100% dod.

A 60 amp hour deep cycle battery, which would net you about 50ah at 80% dod, takes up roughly the same footprint but is twice as tall and weighs 40 lbs.

Now realistically if you only did the recommended 50% dod on the deep cycle battery and I only did 80% dod on my battery you would still need and 80ah deep cycle battery that would weigh about 60lbs to equal my lithium battery.

A lot of this info is based on generic info I found on the nets about battery weight and size so your results may vary but probably not by much.
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