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blackglasspirate Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2006 Posts: 1612
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Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:10 am Post subject: Auto trans kickdown adjustment and worn linkage |
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Mod edit: Just a note, this thread covers adjusting the throttle cable, accelerator rod and kickdown for both stock engines and transplants.
The difference is that the stock 1.9 and 2.1 engines need to be aware of not only proper kick down adjustment but also proper wide open throttle timing and high speed TPS operation.
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Hey all,
So I've been having an issue where the transmission kicks down prematurely, which is annoying and sometimes frightening (when you all of a sudden redline). I've read through some threads on here and the adjustment procedure in the Bentley and am guessing the cable from the pedal to the trans is too tight. I'm going to try to adjust that today, if possible.
My question though is, isn't the governor supposed to prevent the trans from downshifting at high RPMs or at least upshift to 3rd once it realizes it is over-reving? I've had it downshift to 2nd at 65MPH. I was also on the interstate with cruise control at 68 and started going up a small incline and it dropped to 2nd and started almost bucking until I turned off CC and slowed down. Not exactly a relaxing drive.
Anyway, that's it - just wondering. Thanks! _________________ '87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
FB: https://www.facebook.com/holidayatsee |
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Terry Kay Banned
Joined: June 22, 2003 Posts: 13331
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Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:20 am Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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If the kick down rod isn't adjusted properly on the TB arm, this would most certainly cause incorrect down shift points.
If the pivot on the side of the trans is frozen, it also will cause this problem. _________________ T.K. |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15144 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2016 1:11 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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agree with TK
you set the length of the solid (sprung) rod from the trans relay lever to the TB at the TB.
undo the throttle cable at the base of the pedal 1st.
then once you've set the length of the (sprung) rod you take the slack out of the cable at the pedal pivot.
you can dial it in a little to suit by trying some different lengths on the (sprung) rod. this in effect sets the baseline for the AT relay lever "home" position. _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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blackglasspirate Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2006 Posts: 1612
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Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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I know this is a late update to this thread, but I did adjust the kickdown via the rod from the trans to the TB and the cable to the pedal. I just did a 800 mile drive and still had it downshifting to 2nd way too early so it seems I may need to try to adjust it again, but I still had some questions.
I read in this thread ( https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0 ) that 2nd gear in the auto is limited to 55MPH and the governor will automatically upshift to 3rd regardless of throttle position, and also that it won't allow downshift to 2nd when above 55MPH.
That's not the case with my transmission. It will downshift to 2nd at 60MPH and won't upshift again unless I take my foot completely off the gas. So could that still be an adjustment issue or could it also be an issue with the governor? I did another minor adjustment at the pedal (added some slack) before this recent drive, but it didn't make a significant difference. It also seems to kick down sooner when it's hot (driving for a couple of hours).
Unfortunately I don't have the van with me right now to adjust, and it may be a few weeks before I see it again and can attempt to adjust it (it's currently being shipped to Colombia). _________________ '87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
FB: https://www.facebook.com/holidayatsee |
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ALIKA T3 Samba Member
Joined: July 30, 2009 Posts: 6351 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii and France
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blackglasspirate Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2006 Posts: 1612
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Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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Well, I hope there's no crap trapped in there. I recently did a fluid change, along with the filter/paper gasket. I noticed a little bit of stuff in the filter, but not much. It was the first time changing the filter since getting this rebuilt unit about 35k miles ago, but I figured any "glitter" in the filter was probably from the initial break-in.
I'll have to do some research on valve body issues and what I can do about that once I get the van back. _________________ '87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
FB: https://www.facebook.com/holidayatsee |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50338
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Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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Have you pulled the governor and looked at it? A previous owner may have decided to shave the weights a bit to up the shift points. |
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blackglasspirate Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2006 Posts: 1612
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Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:04 am Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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Wildthings wrote: |
Have you pulled the governor and looked at it? A previous owner may have decided to shave the weights a bit to up the shift points. |
Nope, haven't looked at it yet. I'm not sure I'd know what to look for. I got the trans from German Transaxle less than two years ago, so I would assume that wouldn't be the case but who knows. Maybe I'll pop the cover when I get it back and do a visual. _________________ '87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
FB: https://www.facebook.com/holidayatsee |
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kourt Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2013 Posts: 1944 Location: Austin, TX
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Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:16 am Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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This is the info on shaving Vanagon governors:
http://my.tbaytel.net/guskers/trans.pdf
There's also a Youtube video out there, but it's totally useless.
kourt |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50338
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Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 7:33 am Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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FWIW, I shaved the governor on my '91 when I did the Subaru swap, never could get the tranny to shift all that well afterwards. I eventually got hold of an unshaved governor, installed it, and adjusted the linkage a bit and was much more pleased with the overall performance of the box. |
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blackglasspirate Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2006 Posts: 1612
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Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 12:43 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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Thanks for the info, guys. I'll take a look at the governor once I get the van back. Maybe the linkage needs to be adjusted again, though it still sounds like the governor isn't doing its job. I never had this issue before installing the rebuilt trans.
I may attempt to adjust it so I can still hit WOT without engaging the kickdown at all. The times where I actually legitimately use the kickdown are few and far between. I'd much rather have the control to manually downshift if needed. _________________ '87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
FB: https://www.facebook.com/holidayatsee |
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Jon_slider Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007 Posts: 5091 Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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blackglasspirate wrote: |
I never had this issue before installing the rebuilt trans. |
Any chance the issue started when you went to 215x75x15 tires? I would expect them to increase your tranny temp, since they increase load.
They also change your gearing by 10%, and coincidentally your shift point at 60mph is 10% taller than the spec of 55mph
not sure, just some thoughts, I don't have an auto
hope you have a Vantastic Trip _________________ My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco |
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blackglasspirate Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2006 Posts: 1612
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Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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Jon_slider wrote: |
hope you have a Vantastic Trip |
Thanks, man!
That's a good question, but it started before I put the bigger tires on. The new tires potentially added fuel to the fire, but it started before then.
Looks like I have some tinkering to do before I attempt the Andes... _________________ '87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
FB: https://www.facebook.com/holidayatsee |
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Jon_slider Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007 Posts: 5091 Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:32 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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ok, sorry its not just the tires
a few thoughts, with all due respect, as there may be a mechanical issue and you do need to solve it if there is.
Alternative viewpoints, IF the issue is that you're moving heavy loads, up steep hills, at higher speeds than the van can manage. (are you for example keeping your van below GVWR?):
learn to tolerate the downshift, it is there to help you get up a hill.
learn to tolerate higher RPM, 4500k is not to be feared,
learn to tolerate going slower, when the van downshifts going uphill
most of all, major respect for your courage, sense of adventure, and inspired relationship
I really enjoy your photos _________________ My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco |
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djkeev Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007 Posts: 32597 Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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blackglasspirate Samba Member
Joined: June 24, 2006 Posts: 1612
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Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 11:36 am Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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Jon_slider wrote: |
most of all, major respect for your courage, sense of adventure, and inspired relationship
I really enjoy your photos |
Thanks so much for the kind words! We'll try to keep the photos coming.
I definitely do need to get used to going slower with the bigger tires. Right now I am actually unsure of the weight, especially after the recent heavy item upgrades (bumpers, tires, solar, etc.), but I will have to weigh it at the port in Cartagena when it arrives, so I'll know the exact weight then.
I also don't mind going up hills slowly, or the downshift (in theory), but most of the time when it downshifts I still feel like there's plenty of power in 3rd to maintain speed and I actually lose power from it dropping to 2nd because it's topped out at around 5k.
I guess my main beef with it is that it doesn't just do this on steep mountain passes. This past drive was through the flat state of Florida and it would downshift on the small inclines for the interstate overpasses. At this point I'm not entirely sure if it's a mechanical issue or an adjustment issue, but I intend on figuring it out, and also getting used to the ride difference from the tires.
Quote: |
It is much more relaxing doing this than enduring the constant upshift / downshift pattern that occurs if you let the transmission decide.
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That's what I was thinking. I'd much rather be in control of the shifting in those situations. Guess I should have bought a manual transmission! _________________ '87 Vanagon GL Westfalia
IG: @holidayatsee
FB: https://www.facebook.com/holidayatsee |
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Jon_slider Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007 Posts: 5091 Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:21 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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blackglasspirate wrote: |
I guess my main beef with it is that it doesn't just do this on steep mountain passes. This past drive was through the flat state of Florida and it would downshift on the small inclines for the interstate overpasses.
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I'd much rather be in control of the shifting in those situations. Guess I should have bought a manual transmission! |
sounds aggravating, try going slower
it is not reasonable to force a tranny to stay in too tall a gear that can't make enough power to move the load at high speed up an incline.
you CAN manually downshift and hold it there, but again, you have to slow down, since I agree 5000rpm is not relaxing.
everything Im hearing makes me think you are moving a heavy load and disappointed you can't go fast also. It may be that your tranny is not normal, or it may be that your expectations are infected with assumptions that a Van can go fast, and stay in third gear uphill..
I keep coming back to adjusting the Nut at the Wheel..
you have a heavy van, with a box on the roof, and tall tires that rob power. Your best option is to go slower, and downshift manually into 2nd any time the Van shows you that it is not happy to stay in 3rd
of course, none of my guesses matter, it is your actual experience that matters
I hope you find a happy speed to cruise with a minimum of shifting
safe travels! _________________ My Soapboxes: Inflation; Handling; Gearing; Decoupling; Swepco |
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timichango Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2012 Posts: 858 Location: Squamish, BC, Canada
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Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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Jon_slider wrote: |
blackglasspirate wrote: |
I guess my main beef with it is that it doesn't just do this on steep mountain passes. This past drive was through the flat state of Florida and it would downshift on the small inclines for the interstate overpasses.
...
I'd much rather be in control of the shifting in those situations. Guess I should have bought a manual transmission! |
sounds aggravating, try going slower
it is not reasonable to force a tranny to stay in too tall a gear that can't make enough power to move the load at high speed up an incline.
you CAN manually downshift and hold it there, but again, you have to slow down, since I agree 5000rpm is not relaxing.
everything Im hearing makes me think you are moving a heavy load and disappointed you can't go fast also. It may be that your tranny is not normal, or it may be that your expectations are infected with assumptions that a Van can go fast, and stay in third gear uphill..
I keep coming back to adjusting the Nut at the Wheel..
you have a heavy van, with a box on the roof, and tall tires that rob power. Your best option is to go slower, and downshift manually into 2nd any time the Van shows you that it is not happy to stay in 3rd
of course, none of my guesses matter, it is your actual experience that matters
I hope you find a happy speed to cruise with a minimum of shifting
safe travels! |
We've got the stock automatic 3-speed with a subaru 2.5l, plus taller tires, and we didn't have our governor shaved down. Basically only ever use the kickdown to pass on flats (or merge on fast highways) when I'm going to be at full throttle anyways.
For hill climbing at (or approaching) highway speeds, particularly when loaded for camping, with passengers, etc., I automatically (har har) slap it down into second, and just wind it up. I prefer forcing it down into 2nd via the shifter, as it gives me the full range of throttle control, vs. using the kickdown, and just matting the pedal.
The subaru's happy to spin 5500 RPM in a pinch, and I have zero qualms keeping it in the mid-4000s for extended mountain pass traversals, etc. Seems to run cooler and be happier than trying to lug it up those same hills in 3rd. Not sure about the stock WBX — I anticipate that the lower redline of that engine is likely a roadblock there, in which case you're inevitably going to have your constrained by how fast you can climb below redline, in 2nd. As far as I understand the Automatic (per Gowesty's article), the torque converter will essentially either let the engine spin faster at a given speed depending on the torque requirements in a given load scenario. The converse effect there, is that if you're maintaining a consistent climbing RPM, then as the grade increases, the torque converter will allow the vehicle to slow down while letting the engine keep turning the same speed to generate more torque (to get up the increased grade).
On the steeper grades, with heavier loads, yeah sure, we'll get passed, but so what? We're still faster than the average RV or semi crawling up those same grades.
In order to race up and down hills in one of these vans, you'll need a more powerful engine (eg. SVX 6-cyl), and a pursuant fortification of the rest of the drivetrain, lest it get chewed up by the increased power.
[vimeo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5pvxgWJnws[/vimeo] _________________ . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Vroomhilde-San: Our 1991 Silver Vanagon Westy automatic + Subie EJ25 |
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SCM Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2011 Posts: 3115 Location: Bozeman MT
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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My kickdown isn't working now either.
I had a rebuilt transaxle installed a couple years ago and took it back as the kickdown was really harsh. It would cause a loud BOOM but at least it worked. But the installer readjusted the cable/linkage it and it worked fine for 2 years. During our last trip we had no kickdown and had to manually shift into 2nd climbing steep hills.
I'm sure it's a simple adjustment but I'm not sure what to shoot for.
Here's a photo of the TB linkage/pivot with the gas pedal floored;
And the butterfly valve;
Shouldn't that valve be totally open when the pedal is floored?
When I pushed the TB to transaxle linkage toward the front of the van it looked like this, and my helper said, "the gas pedal got pulled closer to the floor".
The butterfly valve looked like this.
Shouldn't that butterfly valve be positioned as shown in that last picture when the gas pedal is fully depressed?
I'm trying to figure out whether the adjustment should be to the pedal-trans cable or the trans-to-TB linkage. I also want to avoid that harsh kickdown I experienced when the trans was installed but don't know what caused that in the first place.
I've looked at my Bentley but the photos showing the various reference positions of the kickdown lever are really poor. _________________ '91 Westfalia GL Automatic (GTA "Turbo" Rebuild w/Peloquin) and 2.3L GoWesty Engine |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16863 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: Auto trans kickdown and governor question |
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it took me a while to wrap my head around how this is suppose to work.
i'll give you a dumbed down version
basically you want WOT when you mash your foot to the floor. the way vw does this is they want the spring compressed on the rod at the TB at the same time the kick down lever on the trans is in kick down mode.
the easiest way i have found to adjust this is push the kick down lever all the way forward and zip tie it there.
have a brick, hammer, ax or whatever keep the pedal to the floor. adjust the cable at the pedal end nice and tight (by tight, i mean pull the cable tight)
take a peek at the throttle blade before removing any bricks, zip ties etc. if it's WOT, you're good to go. if not, adjust the spring accordingly _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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