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Failed smog today
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KKiley
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:18 pm    Post subject: Failed smog today Reply with quote

Went and had the 78 SB tested here in CA, and failed for 2 reasons.
1st one: The EGR tube going from the engine to the canister is broken. From the shaking before I got is adjusted, it broke. Must have just happened. Going to pull it and get it welded.
2nd: Failed the idle test. HC's measured 585 at idle. Max reading is 220.
The HC's at 2500 rpm measured 40, so it's rich at idle. The CO was .003 , max reading of 2, so I have lots of room there to play with the adjustment.

Not sure if the EGR tube would impact the HC's at idle. Also, what is the best adjustments to try to lower the idle HC's?

Thanks!
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Failed smog today Reply with quote

That's all you get for HCs at idle, 220? Oof. Any little niggle in the ignition can cause that, one cylinder with less than great spark will give unburned hydrocarbons (HC) - of course, a bad oil ring or valve guide will as well.
It's fine at high speeds though, so ignition might not be a factor... except:

Does it have the DVDA distributor, and does the retard work? Having the idle timing at ATDC is, by design, there to burn more hydrocarbons.

What RPM was it running at, just bumping it up to 950-1000 if it isn't already, might be enough.

If the EGR controls/solenoid is working, it should shut off at idle.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Failed smog today Reply with quote

Idle was 975. It is a DVDA distributor, the advance and retard are hooked up and working. The timing is set to about 7* advance. Would moving it back to 5* help?
I do have 1 cylinder with about 95 PSI CCP. The others are between 115- 120 CCP. I think I will pull the plug on the low one and see how it looks.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Failed smog today Reply with quote

If both sides of the canister are working, idle should be at 5°ATDC. 7°BTDC is about where you go if the retard is NOT working on most DVDAs. (including the EFI one)

Yes have a look at the spark plug - and adjust the valves if you've not done it recently.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Failed smog today Reply with quote

How much adjustment does the idle mixture screw and the AFM play with the idle HC's?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Failed smog today Reply with quote

Not a whole lot - the screw on the AFM is for mixture, (CO), if you ran it really off then both your CO and HC would be bad. You're looking for reasons to have unburnt petroleum going out the tailpipe, and there are three main ways for that to happen at idle, really bad mixture (yours sounds OK), poor spark, or oil getting sucked in past rings or valve guides.

Having the engine really warmed up/hot helps for the test helps, I just remembered, you said California, so it should have a cat on it??? assuming the catalytic converter still is functional, the hotter it is, the better it works.
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Last edited by glutamodo on Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Failed smog today Reply with quote

Well you are going to have to fix the EGR valve set up so that it actually works. Do that first.

Adjust the valves second.

Adjust the points and timing third. With a real timing light, observe the initial timing with and without the retard side of the distributor vacuum canister in play.

I like to remove both vacuum lines and set the timing to 30º BTDC +/- 2º when all of the centrifical advance is all in. Then let it loaf back to idle and hook up both vacuum lines correctly and note the initial timing. See just how close to 5º ATDC (the notch on the factory pulley is at 5º ATDC). With the retard line removed, the timing should jump to 7.5º BTDC.

The big screw on the throttle body just adjusts the idle speed.

You really need an exhaust gas analyzer to adjust the mixture. You will do that last.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Failed smog today Reply with quote

It still has the cat, and you are right, the engine needs to be fully warmed up when testing. They ran it a while at high rpm's and had it hot before testing.
I'll start with the plugs and set the valves again and lean the air mixture down and get it retested.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Failed smog today Reply with quote

Thanks Randy. You helped me get the timing set before. Right now it's +31* all in, and about 7* advance at idle with both lines connected, Have verified the retard line is working.
I have to get the EGR fixed, no big deal. Do the valve adjustments, check the plugs and see where it stands.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Failed smog today Reply with quote

Leaning the idle mixture usually increases Hc's, as stated already if it's got a miss due to bad ignition, improperly set valves or ecessively lean mixture the Hc's go up.

How about posting all the numbers so we can see what's going on?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Failed smog today Reply with quote

KKiley wrote:
Thanks Randy. You helped me get the timing set before. Right now it's +31* all in, and about 7* advance at idle with both lines connected, Have verified the retard line is working.
I have to get the EGR fixed, no big deal. Do the valve adjustments, check the plugs and see where it stands.


I don't see how the retard line is working if the idle timing is at 7ºBTDC. like Randy said, you should see an instant jump of about 12 degrees the moment the retard line is disconnected, and as I said above, that's where most people set DVDAs that aren't using the retard side.

It is very common to see the retard side of the canister fail and the advance side still function for years afterword.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Failed smog today Reply with quote

CO sounds too low, causing lean missfire. Check for vacuum leak.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Failed smog today Reply with quote

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Failed smog today Reply with quote

Those very low CO numbers are probably due to the catalytic converter. It's hard to adjust CO with a exhaust gas analyzer since this car doesn't have a test port before the Cat.... except the EGR flange.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: Failed smog today Reply with quote

Retard is working. When I pull it, get about a 20* jump. I will go thru all the systems and settings closely again.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Failed smog today Reply with quote

Something's not right then, if it's 31 degrees with the vacuum hoses unhooked and at 2500RPM.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Failed smog today Reply with quote

glutamodo wrote:
Those very low CO numbers are probably due to the catalytic converter. It's hard to adjust CO with a exhaust gas analyzer since this car doesn't have a test port before the Cat.... except the EGR flange.

Actually, somebody put an O2 sensor before the cat. There is a threaded hole for it. The hole was factory, must have used it in other markets. They must have used it to do some testing at one time.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Failed smog today Reply with quote

glutamodo wrote:
Something's not right then, if it's 31 degrees with the vacuum hoses unhooked and at 2500RPM.


It's 31* with the retard line plugged. That's all in, both vacuum and mechanical.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Failed smog today Reply with quote

Oh, that's what's wrong then. You want that 30-ish degrees with ONLY the centrifugal functioning. So BOTH hoses unhooked. Smile


On the SVDA and DVDA setups, the vacuum advance only functions at certain times, at certain positions of the throttle and engine loads, it's more of a "boost" in advance and you don't count it towards the centrifugal plus initial timing, which happens at higher RPM regardless of engine load.
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Failed smog today Reply with quote

Does California have a clause that antiques don't need to be smog tested? I'm glad I don't have to deal with this.
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