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KKiley Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016 Posts: 662 Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:18 pm Post subject: Failed smog today |
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Went and had the 78 SB tested here in CA, and failed for 2 reasons.
1st one: The EGR tube going from the engine to the canister is broken. From the shaking before I got is adjusted, it broke. Must have just happened. Going to pull it and get it welded.
2nd: Failed the idle test. HC's measured 585 at idle. Max reading is 220.
The HC's at 2500 rpm measured 40, so it's rich at idle. The CO was .003 , max reading of 2, so I have lots of room there to play with the adjustment.
Not sure if the EGR tube would impact the HC's at idle. Also, what is the best adjustments to try to lower the idle HC's?
Thanks! _________________ 1978 Super Beetle convertible
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26297 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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That's all you get for HCs at idle, 220? Oof. Any little niggle in the ignition can cause that, one cylinder with less than great spark will give unburned hydrocarbons (HC) - of course, a bad oil ring or valve guide will as well.
It's fine at high speeds though, so ignition might not be a factor... except:
Does it have the DVDA distributor, and does the retard work? Having the idle timing at ATDC is, by design, there to burn more hydrocarbons.
What RPM was it running at, just bumping it up to 950-1000 if it isn't already, might be enough.
If the EGR controls/solenoid is working, it should shut off at idle. _________________ Andy T.
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KKiley Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016 Posts: 662 Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:29 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Idle was 975. It is a DVDA distributor, the advance and retard are hooked up and working. The timing is set to about 7* advance. Would moving it back to 5* help?
I do have 1 cylinder with about 95 PSI CCP. The others are between 115- 120 CCP. I think I will pull the plug on the low one and see how it looks. _________________ 1978 Super Beetle convertible
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26297 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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If both sides of the canister are working, idle should be at 5°ATDC. 7°BTDC is about where you go if the retard is NOT working on most DVDAs. (including the EFI one)
Yes have a look at the spark plug - and adjust the valves if you've not done it recently. _________________ Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
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KKiley Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016 Posts: 662 Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:34 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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How much adjustment does the idle mixture screw and the AFM play with the idle HC's? _________________ 1978 Super Beetle convertible
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26297 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Not a whole lot - the screw on the AFM is for mixture, (CO), if you ran it really off then both your CO and HC would be bad. You're looking for reasons to have unburnt petroleum going out the tailpipe, and there are three main ways for that to happen at idle, really bad mixture (yours sounds OK), poor spark, or oil getting sucked in past rings or valve guides.
Having the engine really warmed up/hot helps for the test helps, I just remembered, you said California, so it should have a cat on it??? assuming the catalytic converter still is functional, the hotter it is, the better it works. _________________ Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
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Last edited by glutamodo on Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Randy in Maine Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2003 Posts: 34890 Location: The Beach
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Well you are going to have to fix the EGR valve set up so that it actually works. Do that first.
Adjust the valves second.
Adjust the points and timing third. With a real timing light, observe the initial timing with and without the retard side of the distributor vacuum canister in play.
I like to remove both vacuum lines and set the timing to 30º BTDC +/- 2º when all of the centrifical advance is all in. Then let it loaf back to idle and hook up both vacuum lines correctly and note the initial timing. See just how close to 5º ATDC (the notch on the factory pulley is at 5º ATDC). With the retard line removed, the timing should jump to 7.5º BTDC.
The big screw on the throttle body just adjusts the idle speed.
You really need an exhaust gas analyzer to adjust the mixture. You will do that last. |
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KKiley Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016 Posts: 662 Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:50 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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It still has the cat, and you are right, the engine needs to be fully warmed up when testing. They ran it a while at high rpm's and had it hot before testing.
I'll start with the plugs and set the valves again and lean the air mixture down and get it retested. _________________ 1978 Super Beetle convertible
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KKiley Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016 Posts: 662 Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:55 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Thanks Randy. You helped me get the timing set before. Right now it's +31* all in, and about 7* advance at idle with both lines connected, Have verified the retard line is working.
I have to get the EGR fixed, no big deal. Do the valve adjustments, check the plugs and see where it stands. _________________ 1978 Super Beetle convertible
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Leaning the idle mixture usually increases Hc's, as stated already if it's got a miss due to bad ignition, improperly set valves or ecessively lean mixture the Hc's go up.
How about posting all the numbers so we can see what's going on? _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26297 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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KKiley wrote: |
Thanks Randy. You helped me get the timing set before. Right now it's +31* all in, and about 7* advance at idle with both lines connected, Have verified the retard line is working.
I have to get the EGR fixed, no big deal. Do the valve adjustments, check the plugs and see where it stands. |
I don't see how the retard line is working if the idle timing is at 7ºBTDC. like Randy said, you should see an instant jump of about 12 degrees the moment the retard line is disconnected, and as I said above, that's where most people set DVDAs that aren't using the retard side.
It is very common to see the retard side of the canister fail and the advance side still function for years afterword. _________________ Andy T.
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richardc Samba Member
Joined: September 06, 2010 Posts: 269 Location: New Jersey & North Carolina
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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CO sounds too low, causing lean missfire. Check for vacuum leak.
Rich _________________ 1970 Ghia vert
1970 Beetle sedan |
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KKiley Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016 Posts: 662 Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:10 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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[img][/img] _________________ 1978 Super Beetle convertible
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26297 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:16 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Those very low CO numbers are probably due to the catalytic converter. It's hard to adjust CO with a exhaust gas analyzer since this car doesn't have a test port before the Cat.... except the EGR flange. _________________ Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
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KKiley Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016 Posts: 662 Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Retard is working. When I pull it, get about a 20* jump. I will go thru all the systems and settings closely again. _________________ 1978 Super Beetle convertible
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26297 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:20 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Something's not right then, if it's 31 degrees with the vacuum hoses unhooked and at 2500RPM. _________________ Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
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KKiley Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016 Posts: 662 Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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glutamodo wrote: |
Those very low CO numbers are probably due to the catalytic converter. It's hard to adjust CO with a exhaust gas analyzer since this car doesn't have a test port before the Cat.... except the EGR flange. |
Actually, somebody put an O2 sensor before the cat. There is a threaded hole for it. The hole was factory, must have used it in other markets. They must have used it to do some testing at one time. _________________ 1978 Super Beetle convertible
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KKiley Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016 Posts: 662 Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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glutamodo wrote: |
Something's not right then, if it's 31 degrees with the vacuum hoses unhooked and at 2500RPM. |
It's 31* with the retard line plugged. That's all in, both vacuum and mechanical. _________________ 1978 Super Beetle convertible
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glutamodo The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004 Posts: 26297 Location: Douglas, WY
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Oh, that's what's wrong then. You want that 30-ish degrees with ONLY the centrifugal functioning. So BOTH hoses unhooked.
On the SVDA and DVDA setups, the vacuum advance only functions at certain times, at certain positions of the throttle and engine loads, it's more of a "boost" in advance and you don't count it towards the centrifugal plus initial timing, which happens at higher RPM regardless of engine load. _________________ Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox. |
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Dwayne1m Samba Member
Joined: December 31, 2011 Posts: 3538 Location: Pennsylvania
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Posted: Sat Nov 26, 2016 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Does California have a clause that antiques don't need to be smog tested? I'm glad I don't have to deal with this. |
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