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KKiley
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Joined: March 08, 2016
Posts: 662
Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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 Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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For now, I am going to run a power wire from the + on the coil to the DR. At least I can drive the car that way until I figure out what the issue is.
I am having a hard time figuring out why these relay's are so fragile? They are pretty basic and I would think the diodes wouldn't die so easily. Just plugging a relay in should not disable it. I can hear the relay click when power is applied.
I sent an email to Bosch support to see what they have to say. I am guessing that if the issue is so serious that it destroys relays, eventually the car will completely die and then I can go from there.
Kevin
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EVfun
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Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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| KKiley wrote: |
I am beyond livid. I now have 3 blown relays. Just plugging them in disables them.
Here are my test results:
With the key on but the engine not having been cranked you should have 12 volts at all of these terminals:
86C- N
88B- N
88A- N
88Z-Y
88Y-Y
While someone is cranking the engine these additional terminals should have 12 volts on them:
86A-Y
86- Y
86B- N
88C- Y
88D-Y
At this point I am done. I might go ahead and bypass the relay but at $100 apiece, I cannot continue testing with them. I can run a wire to the Fuel pump and put it on a switch and run a jumper to power up the ECU and AFM.
Also, when I put the new relay in, I saw a spark in the AFM. So we have shorts and sparks all over the system.
So much for enjoying this car. It is beyond my skills and I don't know where I would turn to and try to resolve it. Now I know why guys dump the EFI.
Kevin |
I saw your post after this when I got to work this morning, and quickly posted a response to that. I didn't see this post and it has data to work with. I will be rolling this over in my head more, but some quick impressions now that I'm home (and have the weekend off):
88Z and 88Y have power -- good. That verifies you have the supply side handled.
86C not having voltage means the ignition switch is NOT feeding the DB when the key is on -- major issue! (please make sure you measured 86C and not 88C - 88c should not be live yet.)
88A and 88B being dead is not good, but expected if 86C is dead. When we get 86C live with the ignition switch on this problem is likely to resolve itself.
86A and 86 being live when cranking means the starter signal is getting to the double relay -- good.
86B being dead while cranking is interesting. It suggests power is not getting through the diode that operates the fuel pump side of the double relay ( -|<- in pink right next to terminal 86A in the drawing posted in this thread.) 86B should have power when the engine is running - supplied by the AFM, and when cranking - supplied by 86A from the starter.
88C and 88D having power while cranking seems to conflict with the results seen at 86B. There should be power on 86B (while cranking but not after cranking if the engine didn't start) as a requirement for the double relay to turn power on at 88C and 88D. I think there is a message here that I'm not getting (yet.)
EDIT: I think I understand why 88C and 88D are live while 86B has no power. In the picture of the insides of one of your double relays I see 3 diodes. I bet the third one is for 86B so that it can feed power to the relay but not back feed to the AFM. A few electrical checks of a double relay could verify that.
I would like to do a post-mortem on one of your damaged double relays. Please post how you opened the relay because I no longer have a late Bug with F.I. so I can't take a look and see how easy the relay case is to open non-destructively. Here is my offer:
If you want to send me one of those relays you used then message me through through theSamba and I will will message you back with my mailing address. I will take careful measurements on the relay and post my result to this thread. We all should know what is right and what is wrong with the relay, and hopefully what got messed up on your car (so many years of previous owner hacking on most of our Bugs at this point.) If I can fix it I will do so and mail it back you, at no cost if easy and for only my cost if not-so-easy. It will be nowhere near $100 because there is not $100 worth of parts in the one you opened. I regularly do analog electrical diagnosis and repair at work, this should be easy.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
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Last edited by EVfun on Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:17 am; edited 1 time in total |
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51153
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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| EVfun wrote: |
| If I can fix it I will do so and mail it back you, at no cost if easy and for only my cost if not-so-easy. It will be nowhere near $100 because there is not $100 worth of parts in the one you opened. I regularly do analog electrical diagnosis and repair at work, this should be easy. |
If it's absolutely FUBAR here's an option: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=362547
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KKiley
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016
Posts: 662
Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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EVfun, that is an amazing offer and I will PM you in regards to the details.
FYI, I just got back from driving the car. Kinda interesting. I ran a wire from the + on the coil to the DR and spliced it in on 88d and 88b. when I was done, I tried to start it but I forgot to hook the wire up to the coil. When I was cranking it, the car started! But as soon as I let off the ignition start position, the engine would shut off. So 88d was energized when cranking, but off when in the run position. So the system will work, just has an issue we need to track down.
Heading out on a Friday night, driving the bug. Time to get a few miles on it and see how it performs.
Kevin
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KKiley
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016
Posts: 662
Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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| Posted: Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:24 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Holy cow Busdaddy, that is amazing! That link should let us find out EXACTLY what is going on. Thank you so much, you have been an invaluable resource to me and this forum.
Kevin
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garyt
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Joined: June 14, 2015
Posts: 763
Location: Burgundy
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Sorry you are still having problems but I was there and pulling my hair out just the same, in the end it worked out but I had to replace a lot of wires and connectors. I had to draw all the connections in diagrams and trace each wire. I actually found a wire stretched inside the sheathing, it had broken in a long diagonal slit (the one to the AAR).
BTW your DRs seem to have a different color circuit board from all of mine, which are green, yours looks white. Probably not significant. |
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garyt
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:18 am Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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So you say you ran a wire from the + on the coil to the DR. But it looked like that wire was already connected ok as in your picture, no?
So do you mean the original coil wire was caput somewhere? Have you traced these wires end to end to see where it was broken or shorting? (as they are usually all bundled together, any bad short can affect multiple wires). |
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airschooled
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Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:45 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Before we continue, please tell me: What is the color of the plug on your AAR? What is the color of the plug on your TTS? What is the color of the plug on your CSV?
| KKiley wrote: |
I just got back from driving the car. Kinda interesting.
I ran a wire from the + on the coil to the DR and spliced it in on 88d and 88b.
2) when I was done, I tried to start it but I forgot to hook the wire up to the coil.
3) When I was cranking it, the car started! But as soon as I let off the ignition start position, the engine would shut off.
4) So 88d was energized when cranking, but off when in the run position.
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Ok, let's speculate for a second, in chunks. 
2) How long was the wait between drive and restart? The fuel pressure regulator (FPR) will hold fuel pressure at a "drivable level" for quite some time. We can not, at this time, say if the fuel pump was running or not during your miracle restart.
3) Carbureted car owners will say "ignition switch!" here, but we KNOW your coil is getting power (because the car runs when the DR is jumped to the coil positive, duh,) so what gives??
4) It appears that 88d could have been on during cranking, but it might have also been residual fuel pressure allowing the startup.
Robbie
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EVfun
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Posts: 5481
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:38 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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| KKiley wrote: |
I just got back from driving the car. Kinda interesting.
I ran a wire from the + on the coil to the DR and spliced it in on 88d and 88b.
2) when I was done, I tried to start it but I forgot to hook the wire up to the coil.
3) When I was cranking it, the car started! But as soon as I let off the ignition start position, the engine would shut off.
4) So 88d was energized when cranking, but off when in the run position.
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It sounds like when cranking the side of the double relay that 88Y connects to had its coil powered by the the cranking signal from the starter (coil powered by 86A.) That supplied power from 88Y to 88C and 88D. With your jumper 88D now supplied power to the coil. That ended when you released the starter.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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KKiley
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Joined: March 08, 2016
Posts: 662
Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Well, that was a disappointment. Went to the Smog shop today to get a status of the readings and we are not even close on ANY readings now.
Prior to all of this, we were only failing on HC's at idle. Now the HC's are in the 600 range. The CO went from .03 to 6.0
I was confident rolling in that it would pass, the car runs that good. Now I am looking at a catalytic converter. At least they are fairly reasonable. CARB shows several from Walker that are compliant:
https://www.amazon.com/Walker-80801-Universal-Cata...J3Y6Z34DEX
I am really tempted to buy a meter to read the exhaust myself, although that might be a bit pricey. At least the smog shop will stick the sniffer in when I stop by and not charge me.
Kevin
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KKiley
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Joined: March 08, 2016
Posts: 662
Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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| Posted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 8:10 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Just a quick update. I have actually been enjoying the car. I don't drive it very far and have a couple of day passes in the glovebox, so if I get pulled over, I can sign one and not get a ticket, since they can see that I have paid all my fees.
I will get back into the wiring soon enough. But this emission thing has gotten me confused. It really runs amazing, and Robbie tuned it exactly where it was showing that it was rich. It starts, stops and runs great.
The one thing I am wondering about is the catalytic converter. When I pulled it in the previous time and checked the readings, the more I warmed up the better they got. I watched the CO readings go from about 600 to under 400 within a minute of revving it up and getting it hot. But the last time I had it checked, I let it sit idling for about 10-15 minutes before sticking the test pipe in. I am just wondering how hot this cat needs to be to test effectively.
I am actually amazed how cheap the cat is to replace. The question becomes, will that get me to pass smog? How much would a new cat improve things? If I can fix this for under $150, I am in.
Let me know your thoughts.
Thanks
Kevin
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garyt
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:27 am Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Maybe I am missing smething in this thread but it would be nice to know what actually fixed the car electrically enough to get it running and drivable.
It looked to me as if you had a bus type DR rather than a car one, not sure of any real differences, but the bus has one more connector, for a ground I think (correct me someone please). |
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KKiley
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Posts: 662
Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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GaryT, I know it's confusing. I was confused just doing the tests myself. I actually have 4 dual relays now. I am going to do a little more testing and post some results along with some pictures of what I have done to get it running.
Now that I have the garage cleaned up and organized I am going to QA all of the DR's and get with Evfun to figure out what the issue is.
Kevin
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KKiley
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| Posted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 10:04 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Robbie, I will look at your questiuons and respond to them tomorrow.
Kevin
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KKiley
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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I guess we address one issue at a time. Thought I would do a compression test on the engine and this is about the average of all the cylinders. Between 60-80 psi on all cylinders. Not good. Wish I had checked it while the engine was out. Oh well....
I saw a new piston kit from an American company for about $160 complete. Just need to do some searching again and find the name of the company and get new pistons, rings and cylinders on the way...
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KKiley
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rockerarm
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:55 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Hi Kevin. Wasn't it recently you posted the car ran nicely when you had powered up the fuel pump? If so, I highly doubt that a heavy 'vert with that low a cranking compression your 'vert would be fun to drive.
I would not trust the validity of that gauge. There are too many variables with the cranking compression test.
Prior to dead lining the piston/cylinder assy why not leakdown the engine in a fashion that will tell you where the leakage is, if any. It is quite possible any compression loss would elevate the HC level causing you to chase fuel injection gremlins.
Hope this helps, Bill. |
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KKiley
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Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 5:27 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Bill,
Remember, I have nothing to compare this engine too. I drove it around with the timing in a fixed position for a while, if that tells you anything. It runs out of pulling power at 38 mph in 2nd gear, so it's probably not that good.
I am pretty confident in that gauge. I have been using my gauges for my Harley and it has always been right on. I do have my leakdown tester so I can try it, but with these results, not really worth it, as I am just going to replace the pistons and rings and cylinders at this point. I will check the valves while it is apart and address any issues I find.
Engine was cold, throttle wide open. I knew #2 was marginal, and I could see that on the plug. Couldn't get the gauge on #1, but#2 was 60 psi, #3 was 74 and #4 was 70. So any way I look at it, those are horrible numbers. They do get better if the engine is hot, but 110 is about the max I've seen.
At least I am just dropping the engine this time, so this should go a little easier.
Kevin
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rockerarm
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:00 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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Hey Kevin. Where's everyone else at today? At the beach!
You're right. You have nothing to compare it to if the engine has been rebuilt and internals unknown. 38mph in 2nd gear? That's no comparison, my friend.
Leakdown your motor and see what you come up with. Don't just tear it down. What if your heads are to blame? Since emissions are such a paramount concern here, even if the heads leakdown ok, why not have them freshened up?
Bill. |
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KKiley
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Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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| Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 6:06 pm Post subject: Re: Failed smog today |
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LOL, I should be at the beach with this car! And it will get there.
Here's a shot of the test I just did:
As you can see, we have major leakage and the sound was loudest from the intake, confirming the bulk of the leak is thru the rings.
I thought about checking the pistons and cylinders to see if a re-ring would help, but I don't have the mics to check the piston and cylinder specs. And for $130, I would rather replace them and save the originals if necessary..
I will check the valves while it is apart and address any issues I can find.
Kevin
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