I'm pretty sure I have been scammed. 63 Convertible

[Downerman]

Can anyone tell me how to tell the difference between a convertible and a coupe with respect to the small details and not the obvious ones?

I purchased a 1963 off this site a couple months ago and paid nearly top dollar. When I purchased the car the seller told me that the title was not available for a week....well nearly three weeks later it arrives. I get it registered yesterday and I've also ordered a ton of parts including a carpet kit. Well guess what... The kit does not fit.... the back seat is apparently a larger width and the entire rear seat/base is from a coupe. Now that the top is out I see poor weld marks on the inside of each side of the car..... you can see this in a post in this forum I posted yesterday.

Well I look at the title and it says "CP" in the body field. The plate says typ 14.

I need to know what other identifiers will give a positive to this. Right now I'm 99% sure it's a conversion. Now I know why the seller held the title for three weeks.

I need some experts to fill me in on what to look for other than what I have mentioned.

D

[rcooled]

Sometimes a supplier will send the wrong carpet kit...might be the case here. I have to admit though, the "CP" on the title doesn't sound good.

When a coupe is hacked...or rather 're-purposed'...into a convertible, it's pretty difficult to get the top part of windshield frame (where the top latches down) to look just right. That's unless the top section of the frame was completely replaced, and that's a fairly difficult job to do correctly and still have the top, windshield and door glass all fit up as they should. Look for signs of welding on the frame. Convertibles also have reinforcement in the rocker panels, but it can't be seen without cutting into the car.
Here's what the top latch area should look like:

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'63 Ragtop (current)
'65 Ghia coupe (totaled)
'67 Ghia convertible (current)
'69.5 Ghia convertible and
'62, '63, '65, '69 Bugs (all long gone)

[trelms]

Yep top windshield latch. That will be the best. Take a pic. We'll pick it apart. . The seats just might be wrong in the back. Many people end up making their own and fitment can change car to car. Should be narrower than a coupe but I doubt its original.
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'74 Ghia Vert SOLD

[sputnick60]

These are details from my '66. This is a factory cabriolet showing the metal around the rear seat.

This last one is of the frame and bows mounted ready for the covering.

I hope this doesn't bring you sad news and it turns out yours is a proper cabriolet.

Nicholas
_________________
'66 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet...
'65 Porsche 356C Coupe...
2005 Mecedes Benz C180 Kompressor Estate
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[Downerman]

With respect to the carpet kit..... it's correct. I verified it with the mfg. Also spoke with Victor at the parts place (Not sure if I can mention the name).... a well known ghia supplier. He confirmed that the wider rear seats are from a coupe. Factor that with the cut/welds (Pic included) and the fact that the title from Colorado says "CP" seems pretty darn solid.

Here's some pics of the Windshield frame/clamp area. Also another flakey and very questionable area I should mention. It looks like the guy who did all this wonderful work took some 1/8" 4" wide by maybe 4' long and welded right under the door sills. Lousy welds and I think he was trying to stiffen up the car. This kid bit re-enforces my opinion.

D

[moogie32]

That rear lip just doesn't look right...
_________________
RIP HBB (1984-2009)
Du liefst so gut
Du warst so schön
Doch leider musst du von uns gehn

[Downerman]

Yeah for sure..... in fact take a look at the one pic that shows the lip as its making the curve (Both sides). It looks to me like that whole back side has sandwiched metal where as the sides (nearest to the doors and out about 15" is one solid piece of metal (less the BS Bondo). Wondering which came first? The chicken or the egg....meaning do you think the entire seat unit was out out and this coupe one added? That would explain the sandwich and welds.

Also does VW have records of what a car was from the factory? Kind of like the Porsche certificate?


D

[KGCoupe]

"Type 143" is the designation for a Type 1 Karmann Ghia Coupe, and "Type 141" is the designation for a Type 1 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet.
Unfortunately I believe that the Vehicle Identification Plate located in the trunk simply says "Type 14" regardless of whether it's a Coupe or Cabriolet.

Have you tried simply Googling the VIN to see if tbere are any online records that may indicate whether it was originally made as a Coupe or Cabriolet?
It's a long shot, but you might get lucky.

Perhaps Googling the name of the seller may turn up some indication of whether or not any other similar questionable deals have been made in the past as well.

[sputnick60]

yep that's right.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/archives/info/chassisdatingkg.php
the 14 started in 1965. where the third digit represents the year. 145 is '65 146 is 66 and so on.
VIN says nothing about the cab/coupe/LHD/RHD variants , only the birth certificate can determine that, unless one is lucky enough to have original delivery papers.

Nicholas
_________________
'66 Karmann Ghia Cabriolet...
'65 Porsche 356C Coupe...
2005 Mecedes Benz C180 Kompressor Estate
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[catahoula lou]

A birth certificate should tell you if it's a factory coupe or cabriolet...

Best,
Thom
_________________
1 great wife
2 Catahoula Leopard Dogs (Mahogany Star and Spartan) - RIP Lucy, Braveheart, & Dusty!
1 1959 mango green Ragtop Bug (the "Mango")
1 1958 pantina red Lowlight Ghia (the "Chili Pepper")

Still looking for:
(1) My Dad's 1955 356 (he raced it amateur-class at Riverside and other courses during 1950s),
(2) My parent's black 1955 hardtop bug (CA license plate FWC 201 or FWG 201), and
(3) My parent's agave green 1957 ragtop bug (CA license plate LFK 734).

[ronjonlasvegas]

What you have there absolutely started out as a coupe. Someone took a coupe and an actual Ghia convertible that was probably wrecked or rusted out and took all the support sections from the convertible and put them in the coupe. The also used the correct windshield header. If you look close at the windshield frame I'm sure you can see where the two sections were cut and spliced together. The rear seat being wider is a dead giveaway that this one started out as a coupe. Sorry.
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September 1964 Standard Sunroof walk through SWR/BG original paint.

[John Moxon]

It would be interesting to see how the Samba advert was worded. Although the car is now a convertible you might have leagal recourse if the description omitted facts or made statements that could be considered fraudulent.

Who was the seller...do they have a feedback topic. You should attempt to recover a part of the money you have spent on the car before you take action but you should make it clear you are prepared to take legal advice if you cannot come to an agreement.
_________________
John.
Judson Supercharger Information on The Samba
My 1958 Shorrock Supercharged Karmann Ghia
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[Downerman]

Yeah I'm going to start looking in the windshield area towards the body. There's more bondo in that area. Noticed that when I drilled a hole for the mirror.

So I have notified the seller and he's denying any responsibility. Told me to sell the car if I was not happy with it. Says to order a birth certificate, which I'm looking into but the physical evidence is overwhelming. Also told me that I had the right to have it inspected and didn't so I have no basis for a law suit. My attorney says I have a strong case (Several different ways in fact). This guy is not going to give up a cent and that's ok because we will have our day in court. ANYONE have any experience in this please PM me.

First off, I can't sell it for what I paid, which was an original 63 Vert because it's now a coupe conversion and I enjoy sleeping at night. I could never just sell it tight lipped and hope someone bought it under the guise of an original 63 Convertible.

The seller is "SaveAllGhias" out of Los Gatos and I will update his feedback soon.

[Starbucket]

Tell him after you sue him you are having him prosecuted for FRAUD and put in jail. You should have used PayPal and let them deal with it. Their fee is well worth it for something like this.

[Starbucket]

Don't forget to give him some "good" feedback here on the Samba.

[dm]

man i am really sorry to hear that and i am glad you outed him (or her) here. That's close to me and it really pisses me off.

[lhwood]

save all Ghias" seemed to me to be a pretty cool dude. He buys recovers a lot of Ghias. He may have saved it that way. I'm not defending him, just saying I've dealt with him and he seemed cool. He definitely knows these cars so that is why I'm saying that he recovered it that way. If he took it apart he would've seen what you see.


I hope that he can see that the deal that was made was not fair, whether or not he knew and he should make amends. It is the right thing to do.

Sorry you have been wronged. I have never been mistreated in all my dealings with the VW crowd through my journey of VW adventures.

just know that this type of transaction is not indicative of VW people.

Hope he makes it right.


Good luck

[Downerman]

So I need some help. Turns out a birth certificate can take months. I would like to find an expert on Ghia's. I would gladly pay them for the service of their time and expert comments. I'm going to need this. I mean the dang title says CP. Did I mention the seller told me that this was common on titles? Personally I have never seen this.


I'm down here in South Monterey area but once the car is drivable I would schlep it up to the bay area or even the central valley.


Dave

[williamM]

Pretty sure California has some consumer protection laws for you- and get a hard copy of the ad as that stuff tends to get lost- and you don't want a "he said she said" case going on.

Know what your going thru as I bought "bills Pil" that was not as described.
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some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.

opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.

Don't step in any!

[ronjonlasvegas]

I think you need to take the Ghia to Karmann Ghia Parts and restoration. I think they are in Ventura, CA. Maybe Scott the founder can give you his expert opinion.

http://www.karmannghia.com/employees
_________________
September 1964 Standard Sunroof walk through SWR/BG original paint.