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Master cylinders: modifications, alternate types, trunk mounted
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titan3c
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: Project mod: moving master cylinders to trunk modifcation Reply with quote

That is all looking promising. As for the shield----it's a real nuisance in changing cylinders---would be much easier without it. What is it's function---just to catch leaks from the connections?
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Project mod: moving master cylinders to trunk modifcation Reply with quote

On second thought-----why not just drill some holes, and make it a bolt on like an engine tin. It would be great if it was a removable part and could be removed as needed. Bob
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Project mod: moving master cylinders to trunk modifcation Reply with quote

titan3c wrote:
On second thought-----why not just drill some holes, and make it a bolt on like an engine tin. It would be great if it was a removable part and could be removed as needed. Bob


I speculate....from looking at it.....that its just a solid cover area to protect the cylinders and lines and switch wiring from getting banged by knees etc.

The prohlem with it....is that it does not act as a catch tray. I would have loved it if it did.

But when you have leaks or have to remove the MC....and fluid falls kn that steel cover....and runs downhill and drips out on the carpet and the pedals.

Over the many years my car sat under a shed before I bought it.....at least a decade.....the outer piston seal rotted out and the MC reservoir poured all over the carpet.

Then over about 7 years and 400k miles.....and numerous master cylinder removals and changes.....with lots of fluid leaks.....that shield got ugly and became a big pain.

Because of this....the pedal cluster was looking, quite rusty. It was not a big deal at the time to remove that shield. Thats why I was also speculating on making a shield....really a tray....that was fairly form fitting that clips or screws on right under the MC. So of it,starts leaking or if I have to pull the MC feed lines or output lines......it dribbles into the tray.
After service I can then pull the tray out and drain it and clean it.

This issue.....is also one of the primary reasons I really wanted to get the MC out from under the dash.
I may still do that.....but its a lot of work.

The real change in thought during all of these discussions......is as just noted.... .if I can make a way to keep an under dash MC clean and not leaking on my carpet and electronic parts......

It would be simpler to keep it under the dash.

To add to this .....if I can either make an adjustable, universal two bolt bracket to be able to use any MC that has the same piston diameter and stroke........or......find a way to have an endless supply of stock type 4 master cylinders and rebuild parts......it may be worthwhile doing that instead of moving the whole mess to the trunk....rebending lines etc. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Project mod: moving master cylinders to trunk modifcation Reply with quote

The other problem.....is that ...yes...the type 3 master cylinder would be the best almost straight across bolt on part with the least guesswork as to whether its going to work.

But...there is a question of the switch locations.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is the definitive type 3 master cylinder casting...although if you look at enough sites...just as many show the late standard beetle casting for type 3 when you search for it.

And...if the switch locations are correct for it.....then if you position the bracket and the type 3 master cylinder...90 degrees rotated toward the passenger side....

The fluid inlet ports from the reservoir would be at 3:00 when viewed from the drivers position....not a problem....and the switches would be at 6:00...and hard up against the steel shield under the dash....which may be the primary reason I re,moved it....I just cannot remember (it was in 2001-2002)....and I have no notes on that in my notebook.

And...the output hard lines would be on top at 12:00 position. The flange bolts holding the MC would be at 6:00 and 12:00.

The other way....and its more things to worry about....would be to drill the switch ports out to the proper 2-3mm size...then give a very light hone to deburr the cylinder....and have the switches on top and the fluid lines on the bottom.
Ray
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titan3c
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Project mod: moving master cylinders to trunk modifcation Reply with quote

Hmmmmm---still looks to me like the type 1 late model is the winner.

BTW, how did you remove the shield. Since I'm messing around down there I'm considering removing it.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Project mod: moving master cylinders to trunk modifcation Reply with quote

titan3c wrote:
Hmmmmm---still looks to me like the type 1 late model is the winner.

BTW, how did you remove the shield. Since I'm messing around down there I'm considering removing it.


Well the late model beetle cylinder is NOT a straight forward winner. As I noted I had to tinker with the spring stops.

I cannot remember all of the details. But....there are stroke volume differences. Maybe this week I can just remove this cylinder and spill its guts and see what is inside and remind myself what I did to it to make it work.
Just installing it out of the box...even with perfect bleeding...it would not stop the car properly.

The problem is that there were MANY changes to both the standard beetle and super beetles There are dual circuits made for drum/ drum, disc/drum and disc/disc set ups.

The nice thing about the type 3 cylinder....aside from fit issues and possibly minor stroke stop and spring pressure issues inside.....it has the exact same bore diameter, stroke lengths for each circuit....and the type 3 front and rear brakes are identical to the type 4 brakes. It will work fine.

If I recall....that plate is either welded on with a pair of spot welded tabs....or I cut it off with a dremel. I believe it has 2-3 spot welded tabs I just had to cut off.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You can just see the lapped over spot welded tab at the far left in this picture. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:34 am    Post subject: Re: Project mod: moving master cylinders to trunk modifcation Reply with quote

After all you have done to research this I have one comment. It looks to me like plating is the best solution. Not the only solution, but the best and most permanent solution.
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2017 7:34 am    Post subject: Re: Project mod: moving master cylinders to trunk modifcation Reply with quote

titan3c wrote:
After all you have done to research this I have one comment. It looks to me like plating is the best solution. Not the only solution, but the best and most permanent solution.



Laughing Yes........oddly enough.....I am kind of leaning toward that. Other people looking on in this conversation are probably freaking out at that thought. This thread has run the gamut from move to the trunk.....to new brackets for alternate master cylinders under the dash.....to just making a bulletproof original MC..... Laughing

So for the benefit of those who have not been following......

1. The pros and cons for making a bolt up bracket to use either standard beetle or type 3 or even Superbeetle cylinders bolted in the position where the stock type 4 cylinder was.

PROS: able to use virtually any two bolt mount 19mm, dual circuit master cylinders.....even early rabbit of golf. To make it feasible for any of the three cylinders listed.....the bracket will need to have adjustment slots for the two bolts that hold it to the pedal cluster. This isbecause the type 3 cylinder will need to install 90° tilted from the standard beetle cylinder.
There "may" need to be some offset to the pedal pushrod. Thinking about this it may be easier to make a simple metal block to do this....more later on that.

CONS:
Standard beetle cylinder: this is the best out of the box fit. But......at this point in time I am pretty sure it takes modification to the inner piston stop (remove the piston, wrap in tape to prevent getting excess dust on it, meaure and cut off the piston stop to match 411/412 piston, clean in denatured alcohol and install).

One note: the books also say that standard beetle has a very assymetrical stroke length....the front wheels are 17.5mm and the rear are 11.5mm. The behavior of the standard beetle cylinder in my car.....matches this.

However....from anecdotal information on other sites and the fact that most of the rebuild kits now list the same part # for type 1 standard beetle and type 3.....some say that the cylinders for beetle are now universal fit and are made different via orifice changes or other small details.

Type 3 cylinder PROS:
this one should be a"no adjustment" internal fit. It lists the same bore and stroke as type 4........
CONS: however......see the note above. Its not clear wether the currently available type 3 cylinders are still the same inside. Also it needs to be installed clocked 90° clockwise and will take some hard line movement.

Replating or resleeving the original cylinders:

PROS: simple bolt up. Everything fits and works. The cylinders did not come plated from the factory with anything. Plating the bore with electroless nickel will be "relatively" simple, extremely smooth and hard and will bring the bore diameter back up to correct dimensions.

With either nickel plate or stainless sleeve.....the cylinder bore can last almost forever if vared for well by normal factory bleeding schedule.

CONS: being able to always get new piston seals when needed. At this point in time seals and flap valves can be pulled from most ATE or FAG cylinder kits. Installing them can be a bit of work but its all feasible.

The problem moving forward is that as the rebuild cores from the 70s, 80s and 90s dry up and leave the market.....and this has been going on for a while.....with other "new" build master cylinders from Varga, Centric and Raybestos and others.....some of the piston designs and seals are no longer using the original FAG and ATE patterns.
I found this on early water cooled new build cylinders from Varga even 10 years ago.

So until I see what is inside of some new build type 1 and 3 cylinders.....its not clear that the rebuild kits for new build cylinders can provide the seals needed for rebuilding our original cylinders.

Note: at this point in time.....its possible I could have seals made CNC to fit our original cylinders.

So the best of both worlds would be to go ahead and build the "universal" bracket.....and .....work on replating the bores of my cores. Ray
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Project mod: moving master cylinders to trunk modifcation Reply with quote

Well I just finished installing the nos cylinder in my car. After getting it in place, and hooking everything up I discovered that the brake line nearest the fire wall would not reach the top connection where the brake switch was on the old cylinder. So I had to switch the brake switches from bottom to top, and would have been much easier to do before installing the mc.

I just got thru and filled the reservoir. Having never done this, is there a particular procedure for getting it all working. I know bleeding is to be done. I noticed after filling the reservoir the fluid level wasn't going down much. Is that normal? Bob
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Project mod: moving master cylinders to trunk modifcation Reply with quote

titan3c wrote:
Well I just finished installing the nos cylinder in my car. After getting it in place, and hooking everything up I discovered that the brake line nearest the fire wall would not reach the top connection where the brake switch was on the old cylinder. So I had to switch the brake switches from bottom to top, and would have been much easier to do before installing the mc.

I just got thru and filled the reservoir. Having never done this, is there a particular procedure for getting it all working. I know bleeding is to be done. I noticed after filling the reservoir the fluid level wasn't going down much. Is that normal? Bob


The switches belong on top in the stock type 4 MC. If you look at your old one when its out....the top portw have very small holes....like .040"-.050" in diameter. The outlet ports are on the bottom and have 2-3mm holes.

Yes.....the holes in the inlet ports are very small so it will not fill the cylinder by itself.

Also type 4 systems have lots of twists and turns so the gravity bleed method does not work.

Even though the order for bleeding is RR, LR, RR, LF.....when a new master cylinder is installed.....you have to get fluid flowing first.

Did you notch the bottom of the plastic elbows? If not you may not get any flow at all. If you did not....pull up lightly....on the plastic elbows. They can move up and down in the rubber bungs about .020" to .030". Make sure they are pulled up as far as possible so they do not seal against the floor of the port.

Make sure the top bleeder valve on your right front wheel has its threads sealed with teflon tape if you do not have speed bleeder valves.

Get a piece of 2"x 4" that is just long enough to hold the pedal to the floor when propped against the front of the drivers seat. Make sure your brake pedal pushrod has the required gap. You can feel this by pushing the pedal with your hand lightly and listening you can hear and feel the pushrod make contact. If there is no gap you must fix this. For the moment you may get it fixed just by asjusting the pedal stop. If that does not do it.....you will need to het under the dash with a wrench.

Cycle the pedal up and down hard and fast just a few times.

Now....go out and crack the right front bleeder screw open....about 1/5th turn. You onpy want a very small openeing so that the MC has to generate pressure before fluid exits.

Go in an move the pedal to the floor fast. Keep it there and put the 2x4 in place to keep it there. Go out and close the bleeder valve. Let the pedal up VERY SLOWLY.....about 10 seconds worth. Get out and crack the bleeder line open and do it again. Repeat ahout five times.

Go to the passenger side caliper. Check your fluid along the way. Repeat this process.

You should be feeling "some" light pressure build up now when you pump the pedal up.

Now go to the right rear and repeat. By this time the fluid flow into the MC should be good enough that you do not have to slowly let the pedal up.

Make two full circuits of the wheels.

Did you pull the guts out of the new MC and wash with denatured alcohol? I always do that on new cylinders....partly because they tend to be filthy sndvpartly because with age the brass flap valves may stick to the pistons. Ray
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Project mod: moving master cylinders to trunk modifcation Reply with quote

Well I didn't do two of the things I should have. I just absolutely forgot about the notching. When I started doing things I just kept moving along, forgot it. So I will make sure they are pulled up as high as they will go.
The other thing I didn't know about. That was pulling out all the innards, and cleaning them. So I guess I'm taking my chances with that. I did notice a slight pedal slap, so I guess that's good.

You said to start bleeding the right front first, and then go to the passenger side. Did you mean to start with the left front first. BTW I have speed bleeders on now.

Also I cut off the part that's always in the way. Used my Dremel tool, and came off smoothly and straight.

So as a beginner in installing one of these I made a couple of mistakes which I will have to keep my fingers crossed on. I surely appreciate your help on these projects. Bob
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Project mod: moving master cylinders to trunk modifcation Reply with quote

One question about the moving the brake switches. Will that work OK, I'm a little confused about inlet ports, and outlet ports?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Project mod: moving master cylinders to trunk modifcation Reply with quote

titan3c wrote:
One question about the moving the brake switches. Will that work OK, I'm a little confused about inlet ports, and outlet ports?


Inlet ports....tne hoses coming from the reservoir

Outlet ports....to the wheels and brakelights .

The brake light switches go in the TOP row of outlet holes ....always....because if you look into the ports after you remove a brakelight switch..... the top holes are very tiny. Too tiny to feed the brakes. Ray
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Project mod: moving master cylinders to trunk modifcation Reply with quote

Ok I moved the brake switch from the bottom to the top-----so that's OK, But why were they on the bottom in the first place?
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Project mod: moving master cylinders to trunk modifcation Reply with quote

titan3c wrote:
Ok I moved the brake switch from the bottom to the top-----so that's OK, But why were they on the bottom in the first place?


They have never been on the bottom....unless the factory changed around the machine work. ....which is possible. All you need to make sure of is that the brake light,switches get fed rrom the snall holes and the calipers and wheel cylinders get fed from the big holes. Ray
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Project mod: moving master cylinders to trunk modifcation Reply with quote

Ah-f*cking-ha!...... Laughing

Your last queation was VERY valid.........why are the brake switches on the bottom?.....especially in the books!

I have four master cylinder corescin front or me....three ATE and one FAG.......and on qll of them.......the small hole ports for the brake light,switches.....are in the top ports.....just like ai said.

In the Haynes manual.......they are on the bottom. And....most of those are RIGHT HAND DRIVE.....but not all of them..

Its possible i am wrong and for some reason VW wants the preasure output portw to be restrcited. I will go through the pqrts book and see if it has the switches on the bottom. Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Master cylinders: modifications, alternate types, trunk mounted Reply with quote

Well---I got the nos mc installed, and went thru the bleeding procedure previously mentioned, and nothing happened. No brake pressure. I will give it one more try, but I'm afraid the nos mc is no good. I've double checked the steps in bleeding, and I did it correctly. I did bench bleed the mc before installing, but I couldn't hold the brake fluid in it while installing. During bench bleeding the mc performed properly, it cycled the fluid in and out the brake line ports very strongly. If I get ambitious I may try bleeding the mc while installed just to see if it is working. I could hook up some lines to the out ports, and see if it's pumping fluid. Interesting point on the old mc that has been in my car since 1971-----the bottom outports are the largest. I have never taken one of these apart, but I think it would be interesting to see if it is good enough for rebuild. It was working before I removed it, but the pedal had to go all the way to the floor to brake. Bob
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 23, 2017 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Master cylinders: modifications, alternate types, trunk mounted Reply with quote

Ok.....the thing to remember with the type 4 system is that because its pretty circuitous.....its notoriously hard to bleed. Little bits of air hide out in high points and fluid bypasses them.

Ok....you need to make sure your rear brake shoes are freshly adjusted. Make sure you have the right gap between the pedal pushrod and the piston.

Also.....as I noted.....use teclon tape on the bleeder valves if you are not using speed bleeder valves. And.....when you crack the valve open.....you just want it open maybe 1/5th turn or less. Just a pinhole. You want it to require high pressure on the pedal to bleed it.
Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 4:41 am    Post subject: Re: Master cylinders: modifications, alternate types, trunk mounted Reply with quote

I do have speed bleeders

What is the correct gap from the push rod to the piston? I have about an inch now.

The brake shoes are not freshly adjusted, so I must do that.
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:52 am    Post subject: Re: Master cylinders: modifications, alternate types, trunk mounted Reply with quote

titan3c wrote:
I do have speed bleeders

What is the correct gap from the push rod to the piston? I have about an inch now.

The brake shoes are not freshly adjusted, so I must do that.


You mean you have about 1" of pedal movement....at the rubber pedal pad right?

The spec is 23.5mm. So if you have about an inch of pedal freeplay.....its fine for bleeding. The worry is if you have no free play...the piston will cover up the replenishment port and they wont bleed well.

Moving forward....if and when you get this bled to be decent.....you get a little better brake response by reducing pedal freeplay to 19mm. But the stock spec is fine.

Good. You have speed bleeders. Make sure you are using the top bleeder on your calipers and not the bottom. Make sure that after you adjust the rear brake shoes, block the wheels and bleed with the hand brake in the off position. As noted just barely crack the bleeder screw and only bleed one at a time.

It usually takes about four cycles of bleeding and go through about 1 quart of fluid. Ray
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