What should I do with the brakes on my 1968 Westy Tin Top |
Refresh Stock Setup |
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70% |
[ 14 ] |
Update Master Cylinder but keep rest stock |
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10% |
[ 2 ] |
Convert to BusStang kit from WagensWest |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
Convert to BabyStang kit from WagensWest |
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15% |
[ 3 ] |
Other (please post below) |
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5% |
[ 1 ] |
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Total Votes : 20 |
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Cavilry6 Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016 Posts: 142 Location: Santa Cruz, ca
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rockerarm Samba Member
Joined: December 16, 2009 Posts: 3552 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:02 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Recommendation? |
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I voted for the stock refresh. Did-assemble and inspect what is worn out (shoes, wheel cyl's, drums, etc). Research availability and costs. Shoes can be relined by a specialty brake shop with options on material.
When done with this and it is not sufficient then a respected member here installed the '71 and later master cyl and brake booster to work with the drum brakes. You can e-mail aeromech for advice.
If this still isn't enough you could upgrade to the later disc brake assy's, either the 71/72 or the 73 and later. You could also install the later rear brake assy's. With this the wheel bolt pattern changes. |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12728 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 10:36 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Recommendation? |
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Perhaps consider the fact that once the tires are locked up, brake type doesn't matter. Invest in good tires. Invest in good adjustments. Invest in a good bleed.
Enjoy.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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richparker Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2011 Posts: 6983 Location: Durango, CO
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Posted: Tue May 23, 2017 11:15 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Recommendation? |
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I used a '71 upper reservoir with good success, so far. Stock brakes are fine, I have 0 issues stopping with my OG set up. It has been gone through, more than one time.
_________________ __________
’71 Westy build
Adventure thread
’65 Deluxe Build
’63 Deluxe Build |
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Cavilry6 Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016 Posts: 142 Location: Santa Cruz, ca
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Brake Recommendation? |
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Thanks for all of the input, everyone!
The brakes most certainly have never been an issue (in terms of stopping distance and such) nor has fade ever been a problem. I guess I am more concerned about safety in regards to if the stock system is prone to failure.
But I can already hear your response to that: "not as long as you maintain it properly."
I suppose the previous failure which resulted in the dented nose and my dad's brake failure (luckily when parked) on his 1964 Land Rover had me spooked. Haha. _________________ 1968 Westy Tin-Top
[url=http://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate2-32802.png]Click to view image[/URL] |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51153 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 7:49 am Post subject: Re: Brake Recommendation? |
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I voted stock (suprised?), if they have been fully serviced and are maintained properly they are more than adequate, if you have a weak leg the booster mod doesn't hurt.
But "fully serviced" doesn't mean just pull a drum and wash off with brake cleaner, strip each unit down to the bare backing plate and clean/free up/lube each little component, fresh cylinders and shoes as well if you have any doubts about what's there now. And replace all 4 flex hoses as well, even the best brakes can't do thier job if the fluid isn't getting to where it does it's thing.
15 minutes adjusting while you wait for the sump to drain at each oil change keeps them in top condition. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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Слава Україні! |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12728 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 9:20 am Post subject: Re: Brake Recommendation? |
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Ooooh, also worth nothing, is from 2015's annual "wrap up" thread, the four buses with the most miles on them ALL had stock four wheel drum setups.
_________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16971 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 10:00 am Post subject: Re: Brake Recommendation? |
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Disc brakes are great. That's why ALL modern cars have them now, even on the rears. That said, people have converted their 1968-1970 bay window buses to have front disc brakes. The problem is that when you change one part it affects other parts. For instance, if you change the fronts to use say 1971 stock rotors then you have changed to the narrow five bolt pattern and now your front wheels don't match the back. They look funny. You can buy one of these expensive kits but I'd be willing to bet that there's some unmentioned detail somewhere that throws a fly in the ointment. Like Tom Powell's bus. He has front discs but runs bug wheels for some reason. So it has become a bastard in my eyes.
The booster mod I do to the original drum brake buses has worked well on at least four buses so far. I've never had a complaint. It gives easy pedal force and positive stops. Problem is you still have the extra maintenance required to keep the drum shoes adjusted unlike discs which are self adjusting.
Here's a quick parts list
1) 1971 Brazillian master cylinder $70 + lower reservoir and two bungs $25
2) 1971 aftermarket booster, new, about $160
3) Fabricate a metal plate to weld to the front beam for the booster to mount on.
4) 7 feet of Gates 15/32 power brake hose $20
5) Vacuum check valve $10
6) Rod from booster to brake pedal $10
Laastly, you'll need to find a way to tap into the intake manifold for vacuum. _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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vwible Samba Member
Joined: January 02, 2005 Posts: 160 Location: East Windsor, NJ
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Brake Recommendation? |
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For the vacuum, could you tap into the crossover tube that's part of a Kadron dual-carb setup by a "T" connector set next to the 3-4 side intake manifold? _________________ 1970 Tin Top Walk Through Bus |
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aeromech Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006 Posts: 16971 Location: San Diego, California
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Brake Recommendation? |
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Not sure, maybe _________________ Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound |
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scrivyscriv Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011 Posts: 2922 Location: Memphis
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 11:14 am Post subject: Re: Brake Recommendation? |
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I'm pretty sure posting in the bay forum is going to get a vast majority of votes for stock
Any particular reason in mind you'd want to modify the brakes, like higher horsepower or something fun in mind like track day? _________________ Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
If you're ever in the Memphis area, you are welcome to stop by for advice and help. |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12860 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Recommendation? |
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scrivyscriv wrote: |
I'm pretty sure posting in the bay forum is going to get a vast majority of votes for stock
Any particular reason in mind you'd want to modify the brakes, like higher horsepower or something fun in mind like track day? |
Because he hasn't gotten married yet & found out that she can spend it faster than he can make it. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Tom Powell Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005 Posts: 4855 Location: Kaneohe
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Recommendation? |
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aeromech wrote: |
... Like Tom Powell's bus. He has front discs but runs bug wheels for some reason. So it has become a bastard in my eyes. ... |
I ordered the kit from Germany and installed it. When I went to put the wheels and tires on they did not fit over the calipers. I had been sent a kit for 15" wheels. My temporary solution was to buy 15" wheels and tires. Last week I ordered a kit for 14" wheels and I'll be doing a front disc brake R&R and OG wheels and new tires on my next trip to SoCal the end of July.
Aloha
tp |
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wcfvw69 Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13389 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Recommendation? |
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My 1970 bus brakes were a joke when i bought my bus a few years ago. If you applied the brakes, the bus would pull massively to the right. I found a seized front wheel cylinder.
Since then, the brake system has been inspected and new front pads installed. I've also replaced the rubber brake hoses. I think the drum brakes are very effective now that everything has been refreshed and adjusted correctly.
Yes, disc brakes have many advantages over drums. However, the drum brakes don't require that much more maintenance. _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
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Cavilry6 Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016 Posts: 142 Location: Santa Cruz, ca
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Recommendation? |
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scrivyscriv wrote: |
Any particular reason in mind you'd want to modify the brakes, like higher horsepower or something fun in mind like track day? |
Mostly safety. In my mind (which is a weird place, don't visit) disc brakes are safer and easier to manage. Less prone to fade, better stopping power, etc. I live in the Santa Cruz mountains...so I have windy roads, crazy druggies, and rough weather to deal with on a regular basis. Meaning, brakes are important.
But no, no high horsepower. And I leave my track shenanigans to my Alfa. _________________ 1968 Westy Tin-Top
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Tom Powell Samba Member
Joined: December 01, 2005 Posts: 4855 Location: Kaneohe
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Posted: Wed May 24, 2017 7:09 pm Post subject: Re: Brake Recommendation? |
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In the VW disc brake design for bay windows there is a proportioning valve which restricts pressure/flow to the rear OG brakes. These valves are a rare part now. There is also a vacuum operated brake booster. Lack of a booster does not change the stopping distance, but requires some leg strength. I've swapped ends three times going downhill on snow/ice. Each of the slides was initiated by letting off on the throttle. Never had any body damage. On snow/ice I've momentarily locked up the front wheels and started heading for the ditch, but getting off the brake stopped the slide. My OG front brakes were bad/grabby/weak and I decided to go disc in the front with a dual MC. The components of the kit were excellent, but I got a kit for 15" wheels FUR. A replacement kit for OG 14" is on order.
Aloha
tp |
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MrVWGuy Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2010 Posts: 643 Location: North of Pittsburgh PA
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 4:39 am Post subject: Re: Brake Recommendation? |
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I converted to late beetle dual reservoir behind the driver seat in my 68 a few years ago & I just recently installed the Wgenswest babystang kit and loaded up the bus with my two teenage sons, my girlfriend, dog, & camping equipment and drove 500 miles to the Charlotte transporter show and I love my new brakes! I chose the babystang kit so I could retain my stock wheels. I love my new brakes!!
_________________ '63 Bus (camper of unknown origin)
'62 Beetle
'68 Kombi
'76 Westfalia camper, the wife's |
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TomWesty Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2007 Posts: 3482 Location: Wyoming,USA
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Posted: Thu May 25, 2017 5:00 am Post subject: Re: Brake Recommendation? |
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vwible wrote: |
For the vacuum, could you tap into the crossover tube that's part of a Kadron dual-carb setup by a "T" connector set next to the 3-4 side intake manifold? |
Yes. That's what I'm running. _________________ If you haven't bled on them, you haven't worked on them.
Visit: www.tomcoryell.com and check out my music! |
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