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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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 Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:03 pm Post subject: long wall insulation question |
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i know this is like the oil topic...
pulled the rest of my van apart to take care of mouse shit and like many, i have some rust (thankfully not bad at all) under/behind the sink.
i was thinking reflectix instead of the fiberglass or a bit of a hybrid of FG up top and refletix under the horizontal side support.
2 part million dollar question:
1) what did you use
and
2) what did things look like when you went back in there, as in did you fix stuff and shove it all back in "set it and forget it" style or did you have to pull it back out for some reason and were able to check on things.
my floor was toast under the sink (sub floor, that fiber garbage) and i found a pack of faucet washers so i wonder if the sink leaked 
anyway, just wondering what is SOP on these. this never seemed to be an issue on bay windows so i want to do it once and do it right
please and thank you 
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17114
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:13 pm Post subject: Re: long wall insulation question |
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Multiple layers of reflectix. Lowe’s stocks it.
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valvecovergasket
Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2018
Posts: 1491
Location: pnw
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: long wall insulation question |
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tl:dr - didnt insulate. removed the nasty old stuff, some rust spray paint over the surface rust i found, called it a day.
it was a little rough but not bad. the insulation was nasty though. black spots, just looked gross. and i was in the process of the removing the wall-to-wall-to-wall purple industrial carpet.
scotchbrite to get rid of some of the high spots and knock the rust flake off, clean, spray with eastwood rust paint.
it should breath better now.
didnt bother with insulation. the van has windows that are gonna let a lot of cold in.
some sheets of dynamat knockoff, and some of their 1/2" thick foam here and there to get rid of some buzzing.
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fxr
Samba Member
Joined: December 07, 2014
Posts: 2321
Location: Bay area CA
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: long wall insulation question |
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I give credence to the theory that most of the ubiquitous damp behind the kitchen is due to condensation dripping off the Dometic fridge condenser, rather than somehow escaping from the sink though obviously there must be a few cases of that.
Having converted to a TF65, we just used some sort-of-insulating sound deadening onto the outer skin, as there's no room now for much thicker insulation. 
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1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: long wall insulation question |
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| fxr wrote: |
| I give credence to the theory that most of the ubiquitous damp behind the kitchen is due to condensation dripping off the Dometic fridge condenser, rather than somehow escaping from the sink though obviously there must be a few cases of that. |
^^^^ now THAT is something i did not consider. my "damage" seems to be localized to under the sink itself but i like that theory. every refrigerator i have ever fooled with has a drip pan 
not sure what the plan is for the stock unit, i may fool with it just to say i did, then upgrade down the line..... one disaster at a time 
i think mark's idea looks pretty good. being in the northeast it is nice to have some sort of insulation
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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MarkWard
Samba Member
Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 17114
Location: Retired South Florida
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:04 pm Post subject: Re: long wall insulation question |
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In the southeast the blue side can get so hot on the exterior you can not hold your hand on it. I’m using insulation to aide the Dometic in sunny conditions. I added a second fan to one of the service ports to pull the heat out. We use our dometic year round.
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valvecovergasket
Samba Member
Joined: October 10, 2018
Posts: 1491
Location: pnw
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: long wall insulation question |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
| fxr wrote: |
| I give credence to the theory that most of the ubiquitous damp behind the kitchen is due to condensation dripping off the Dometic fridge condenser, rather than somehow escaping from the sink though obviously there must be a few cases of that. |
^^^^ now THAT is something i did not consider. my "damage" seems to be localized to under the sink itself but i like that theory. every refrigerator i have ever fooled with has a drip pan
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same, thats interesting!
ours was a CA van before i grabbed it in southern OR, all fairly dry relatively speaking, and not prone to rust. and yet there was moisture trapped in that area. interesting!
for what its worth i really enjoy the storage space for groceries that dumping the stock fridge provides.
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32584
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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dobryan
Samba Member
Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 16501
Location: Brookeville, MD
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Love My Westy
Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 1837
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 5:25 pm Post subject: Re: long wall insulation question |
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| I have an '86 Weekender that lives in the garage, so when I pulled the long plastic panel all I found was So. Utah dust. I removed the fiberglass, added a goodly amount of Fatmat sound insulation, then a layer of Reflectix, and then put the original fiberglass insulation back in. There was no sign of any rust as I live in Utah where the humidity is low. The fiberglass does not make contact with the body metal. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Mon Feb 15, 2021 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: long wall insulation question |
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| dobryan wrote: |
| And if you camp in cool/cold conditions you’d be amazed at the condensation from your breath/body on the metal panel on the inside. |
even on a cool night i can remember several times having a fog on the inside windows of my 71.
| djkeev wrote: |
Nice theory about refrigerator moisture, but my weekender has wet insulation and rust here too.
I think it has to do with seam sealer decay and window rubber decay.
Dave |
that could be as well, but i saw no evidence of that being the case on this van. admittedly this is the deepest i have gone in terms of pulling a vanagon apart.
i thought my issues stemmed from a leaky skylight. truth be told, nothing was wet upon removal but that hideous fiberboard "filler" panel under the sink was a touch damp, and basically turned to dust when i touched it.
unfortunately the cabinet unit floor is also smoked in that area too (under the sink)
the other thing i took into consideration was water tank "sweat" but that part of the subfloor was pretty solid.
i think a big part of my rust issue was accelerated by mouse piss. there was literally almost NO fiberglass on the lower part of the wall. it was deposited everywhere else in the van
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:22 am Post subject: Re: long wall insulation question |
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I don’t think there’s anecdotal evidence of anything working.
Some feller does all this work, and repaints, then the van gets so valuable he puts it in a garage.
So it works, but indirectly.
The way insulation works (condensation-wise)..... is:
It causes still air - to create a temperature gradient between inside walls and outside skin.
Where the inside walls remain “warm” and consequently the humid air doesn’t condense on the inside wall surfaces.
If all the walls are "warm", the water remains "suspended in the air".
What the van is missing, is a vapor barrier to prevent warm humid air from contacting cold steel.
Humid inside air reaches the cold outer skin and condenses, then runs down the wall and pools (....perhaps into the salty mouse piss).
What people are doing that “makes insulation sense”, is to insulate the steel skin and seal it on the warm side so humid air can’t get to the steel.
But thay have the notion that the inside surface of this very thin insulation is “warm”.
It's not.
The surface of the (thin) insulation still gets cold, and water condenses on it.
Like moisture on a beer glass.
So the insulation has "sealed" the sheetmetal but water still runs down to the bottom, keeping the area wet.
However, maybe a little less water on the insulation, than would condense upon cold bare steel.
Thin insulation just can’t really “do it” except in a very narrow temperature band.
Basically it can’t "solve" the problem.
I don’t think you can possibly insulate your way out of condensation in a thin-walled steel van.
But you can increase comfort by insulating.
For the rust problem its probably better to devise a way to actively evaporate the condensate that you KNOW will be there.
Maybe add a warm air duct from the rear heater into that long wall cavity.
So theres air movement and heat every time you drive the van.
I believe active evaporation is the direction we must take.
But it will take 10 years, and vans parked outside to prove this.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32584
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 2:07 am Post subject: Re: long wall insulation question |
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Actually, when you have a steel and glass box, trying to insulate the steel is folly when you consider the vast expanses of glass cannot be insulated.
I think VW wasn't trying to insulate as much as they were seeking noise dampening.
Light airy batt insulation absorbs sound....... cheaply.
No, it isn't stopping all noise, just dampening it.
Making the tin portion of the box just a bit quieter.
Rigid non absorptive insulation insulation tends to transfer sound vibrations.
Tintops have this batt insulation too, it sure wasn't installed for camping comfort..... audio comfort,..... yes.
If you are serious about rust abatement, the suggested venting of cavities is essential.
We tend to make things too air tight while seeking warmth Retention, In housing, a moldy rotten house is the result.
If you do a good job, you can beat the mold and rot but end up with a sick unhealthy house.
There are residential air flow solutions but they cost money.
Few people truly grasp the complexities of insulating.
Dave
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Sodo
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007
Posts: 9603
Location: Western WA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:03 am Post subject: Re: long wall insulation question |
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| djkeev wrote: |
| Few people truly grasp the complexities of insulating. |
Insulation itself is not hard to grasp, but insulation combined with humidity control gets complex. Then add the constant daily changes in of temperature and humidity. Then add the incidental variations (is it raining today? Foggy?)
One way to simplify it, is you need about 6 inches of insulation in the northern climates of the USA.
This is not feasible in a vanagon.
But don't give up so easily on the comfort aspect of insulation.
Those reflectix panels people put up in their canvas poptops, even at 1/4" thick make a noticeable increase in comfort.
Vanagons have a rust problem in 'the long wall'.
And a few other areas.
For a few different reasons.
The most significant contributor being that the area is "allowed to remain wet" for long periods of time.
The "allowed to remain wet" is what must be changed and trying to dry it with insulation methods (adding or deleting) is too subtle - it ain't gonna work on its own.
And it's a long process to discover and test "the methods", so people don't get much feedback.
_________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Thu Feb 18, 2021 9:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32584
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 10:48 am Post subject: Re: long wall insulation question |
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to muddy the debate even further...
there has to be something unique to the vanagon to make it rust prone along the drivers rocker.
coming from the bay window world this area is a non issue, even in New England. when it does get scuzzy it's because the rocker gave up the ghost or the front wheel tub behind the tire got breached.
other than the "flap" welded to the cargo floor to "box in" that lower area the vanagon and bay window's are very much alike EXCEPT the vanagon's horizontal rocker seam is ABOVE the floor.
bay window's seam is BELOW the floor, and the floor has a 1/2" flange up the side wall:
this poor bus had spray foam insulation in it
the issue with this bus is threefold: spray foam, leaky window and a floor/rocker hole.
this is not the norm for a bay window to rust like this...YES it does happen but in all of my (too many) years dealing with bay window buses in the north east this was a rare case.
what i'm getting at with the vanagon is at least in westy trim, the interior panel has enough holes in it to allow for circulation/evaporation. you'd really have to have an active leak to have it wet in there at all times.
on top of that, the seam being ABOVE the floor doesn't help 1 bit. it is only sealed from the outside of the van. anyone who has done rust work knows overlapping panels are suicide in terms of rust....ask any split bus owner.
if the van was dipped or not at the factory only so much will flow between spot welded panels. had vw sealed this seam internally at the factory OR put the seam below the floor, and had the floor turn up the side like on the bay/splits this area would be fine in my opinion.
now ALL of that aside, i am still not sure what i'll do i'm not looking to retain heat etc in the van, I simply don't care...that's what heaters are for. what i think i may do is some sound deadening and some refletix, still on the fence how to proceed
when we built our house i was adamant about spray foam insulation. we did 3" of foam, 3" of fiberglass bats and the whole house is wrapped in 1/2" insulation. basement is also insulated with 1" foam panels attached to the foundation.
our house is 3,000 sqft. we do 1 330 tank of oil per year for heat/hot water. warmer winters i can go a year and a 1/4 depending how much i limit my wife and daughters shower time
_________________
| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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harvgwen
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2021
Posts: 159
Location: British Columbia, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:18 pm Post subject: Re: long wall insulation question |
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I’m new to Vanagons but not new to maintaining old vehicles. I believe Djkeev is quite right that the insulation is not for rust proofing, in fact it probably holds moisture to the point that it worse for rust. A good paint coat with a good corrosion barrier, like Dinitrol or equivalent, should keep the rust at bay for some time.
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ProspectiveOwnergon
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2020
Posts: 211
Location: SoCal
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| Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: long wall insulation question |
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Bringing this back:
Has anyone tried rubberized spray or pasti-dip interior coating to create that vapor barrier and then added the kilmat/insulation? |
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SyncroHead 
Samba Member
Joined: May 23, 2005
Posts: 1141
Location: Northern Nevada
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| Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: long wall insulation question |
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| Sodo wrote: |
| Insulation itself is not hard to grasp, but insulation combined with humidity control gets complex. Then add the constant daily changes in of temperature and humidity. Then add the incidental variations (is it raining today? Foggy?) |
I'm with Sodo on this one. It's all about the internal moisture control.
I decided to go all in on the moisture control and more or less ignore soundproofing and thermal insulation. I packed my long wall with 326 packets of Silica Gel Desiccant I'd been saving for a rainy day. About 84lbs of the stuff.
It's been nearly 3 weeks and it seems good so far. Time will tell.
Jim Davis
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| sphet wrote: |
| I have *no* idea what the previous owner carried in his Westy... angry donkeys? |
Last edited by SyncroHead on Wed May 19, 2021 8:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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MayorMcCheese
Samba Member
Joined: October 07, 2009
Posts: 658
Location: Lancaster PA
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| Posted: Tue May 18, 2021 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: long wall insulation question |
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| ProspectiveOwnergon wrote: |
Bringing this back:
Has anyone tried rubberized spray or pasti-dip interior coating to create that vapor barrier and then added the kilmat/insulation? |
Lizard Skin makes sprayable insulation and sound deadener. I'm sealing all the interior seams and spraying the sound deadener over top.
https://lizardskin.com/
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=589753
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