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Ptomas Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2011 Posts: 5 Location: Charleston,SC
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:33 am Post subject: VW made roll bar dimensions |
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Hiyas- I'm brand new to the site and to Things. Purchased a sweet nanner' yellow Thing and I'm off! I will post some pics soon. I would like to install a roll bar,but cant seem to find one of the VW made ones close to my area. I have a friend who does roll cages in dragsters who would fabricate one for me, but I have nothing to go by.Does anyone know where I can get measured drawings of one? If someone could just furnish dimensions, I could produce scaled drawings that I would share.I could do a sketch-up model as well.Hope I'm not stepping on any toes, but I'm too cheap to buy a show bar that bolts together. I have searched the samba for a resource but came up empty. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks! |
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It's a play thing Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2009 Posts: 575 Location: Dayton, Nevada
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:41 am Post subject: |
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Why not take the car to your friend who builds roll cages and have him design and build a nice custom cage ? _________________ It's not the size of your shop, it's what comes out of it that counts.
I've been playing with my thing ever since I got it... |
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Ptomas Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2011 Posts: 5 Location: Charleston,SC
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:56 am Post subject: |
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Thats do-able,but I want the look of the VW bars. Their attatchment points would also be helpful. I want my friend to just have to fabricate, not design. |
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Semper_Dad Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2005 Posts: 3506 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:04 pm Post subject: |
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You should search and look through the forums and photo galleries. There are quite a few threads on this subject. Pick what features you like best and adopt them to your bar.
Some of the things you need to ask;
Do you want a 4,5,6 point bar?
Will the bar need to fit under a soft-top or hard top?
Are you going to upgrade to 3 point seat belts
Do you want a one piece unit or a "bolt together" system
Pictures from the galleries;
Simple 2 Point (Note angled back for 3 point belt system)
My 4 point - I wish my front bars were angled back so I could install a 3 point belt system.
Absolutely Awesome 6 point
Another awesome bar/rack system
The following pictures are of my 4 point attachment points.
Rear bar attachment point. DO NOT forget the backing plates!
Front bar attachment point. Note the mounting plate rolled over pan edge. Bolted both horizontally and vertically.
Would be best if I removed the seat belt hanger and replace it with an upper mount for the bar. There are existing bolting holes for this.
Another piece of advice would be to angle the bar over the front seats back 60 degrees and weld bosses on it for a 3 point belt system. _________________ Walküre Restoration Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=737492 |
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Ptomas Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2011 Posts: 5 Location: Charleston,SC
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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Holy crow- Thats a bunch of good data! Definetely will rig for the three point belt system,I think that will give as much benefit as the roll protection. I will also fit it under my soft top. I will post what I come up with using those parameters and the mass of images. Thanks a bunch! |
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Semper_Dad Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2005 Posts: 3506 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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You could try and "mock" out a system using PVC tubing and fittings.
Something I don't like about my bar is that the rear struts are real close to the top frame and gets scratched up easier. _________________ Walküre Restoration Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=737492 |
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Van-go108 Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2006 Posts: 2995 Location: Southwestern, NM
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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Great idea for a mock up. You can also Google, "Roll Bar Specs" either in SCCA or NHRA guildlines for some important considerations too. _________________ "Okay, so there's 6 beers and 5 of us. You know what this means don't you? 4 of you are going to have to leave."
1973 Thing
1957 Continental Mark II Click to view image |
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oasis Samba Member
Joined: December 12, 2002 Posts: 2168
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 1:35 pm Post subject: |
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Semper_Dad wrote: |
Will the bar need to fit under a soft-top or hard top? |
I understand all kinds of nuances can be introduced if a roll bar is custom made. But are there genuine Thing or aftermarket roll bars that fit under one top but not the other?
Semper_Dad wrote: |
Are you going to upgrade to 3 point seat belts |
Given you making this point and emphasizing the angled-back section in the one photo, should I assume the stock roll bar won't allow for a 3-point seat belt?
Semper_Dad wrote: |
Do you want a one piece unit or a "bolt together" system |
My newness is showing here, but are you saying some roll bars are actually sectionals? Or are you referring to the potential attachments one might have as separate units such as the basket on the awesome 6-point roll bar?
Speaking of that combo pictured on the orange Thing, I assume that basket comes off and has to come off if that owner decides to put his top up. And speaking further on that orange Thing, does it have 3-point seat belts for the rear occupants, too?
Furthermore ...
I have looked at some roll bars on Things in the classified section and some of the aftermarket roll bars, but I have not put too much investigating into the subject as I have not even purchased a Thing yet. Perhaps this thread is the kick in the pants I need when considering Things for sale. To that end, let me ask this:
Will a set of high-back front seats affect any decision making about roll bars? _________________ Now: 2003 New Beetle Turbo S / 1990 Single Cab Transporter / 2014 Tiguan R-Line 4motion / 2013 Tiguan S / 2002 Golf GLS TDI
Past: 1974 Thing Acapulco / 2009 Eos Komfort / 1997 Jetta GT / 2002 Cabrio GLX / 2002 Passat GLS / 1971 Super Beetle / 1993 EuroVan MV Westfalia / 1981 Pickup LX / 1985 Vanagon / 1986 Jetta GLI |
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Ferretkona Samba Member
Joined: December 03, 2005 Posts: 1306 Location: Columbia, CA
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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My thought with a full cage is to add bars under for seat mounts. Stock rails are only so good, better can be fabricated. _________________ 74 181 Thing
2008 Ford Sport Trac V8 4x4
2008 Ford Escape V6 |
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yellow73kubel Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2008 Posts: 789 Location: Columbia, SC
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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The 4 point design generally accepted as VW-made (either one or two hoops) will not fit under a VW hard top without trimming the top. The rag top works just fine, but can rub against the hoop when folded.
High backs will fit fine, unless they are significantly wider.
A single hoop cage like the one on that yellow Thing is only good for seat belt mounting, it will not do anything in a roll over.
I have a cage just like Semper_Dad's, and have welded seat belt tabs to the front hoop just below the bends. They could be a few inches farther back, but I don't think it is a major issue. Whatever you do, do NOT drill a hole larger than about 1/8in in the cage tubing.
Finally, you can make a bolt-together cage, but it isn't a great idea. The only way to make it ideal is with special steel C-clamps that weld in and allow two tubes to screw together. Expensive and a less than ideal weak area. |
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Yarkle Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2009 Posts: 1218 Location: the Hills of Western Maine
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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I have a 4 point style, and i was thinking I could maybe weld another bar behind the "hoop" going from side to side (maybe a foot or so behind it) and weld the seat belt tabs to that?
Would that work?
My rollbar is almost exactly like the one in the 1973 thing ad with the "drawings"..its in the 3rd post in this thread:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=407294&highlight=roll+bar |
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Semper_Dad Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2005 Posts: 3506 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Thu Mar 03, 2011 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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The "roll-bars" at The Thing Shop are bolt together and that may be one of the reasons they call it a show-bar instead of a roll-bar. The hoops are one piece but the tubes joining the front and back hoops bolt together. I believe it's primarily for shipping reasons. No reason you can't hit it with a welder once you assemble and mount it.
High-back Beetle seat shouldn't affect mounting off a roll-bar. Might have some trouble accessing the seat back release (not that you really need it). Make sure you check out operation of all the seat features before settling on a final design. Make sure the seat slides all the way forward and back.
I have some pretty big shoulders and find that my left shoulder bumps the bar from time to time. This is another reason to have the front bar angle back.
Ideally, if you install a 3-point seat-belt system, the mounting point for the upper mount should be higher and behind the shoulder of your typical passenger. In the event of impact that prevents the transfer of the downward force from going through the spine.
My 4-point would be considered a standard VW roll-bar and fit under my soft-top with no problem. In fact there's a least 4 inches between the front bar and the top with the top up.
Yep, the orange Thing's rack does come off. Not that it happens very much. Owner lives in a mild climate. The orange one also has provisions for rear 3 point seat belts.
Living in the Pacific Northwest, I believe the soft-top is the best option for me. I like to drive my Thing at every opportunity rain or shine. If you live in Southern California, Hawaii, or anyplace tropical you can get away driving with no top (just drill a few extra drain holes in the floor )
Here's another roll-bar "accessory" I like. A "oh sh*t" bar behind the front seats. It bolts onto the front hoop.
A nice pic from Captain Spalding's Gallery
The Ultimate Cage/bar
This is from Michael B's build thread. Start at page 10
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2...;start=180
_________________ Walküre Restoration Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=737492 |
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oasis Samba Member
Joined: December 12, 2002 Posts: 2168
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:05 am Post subject: |
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Great, thorough answers as per usual. This may be the best VW section in the entire web (or, at least, the entire web as I know it). One quick follow-up as I was taken aback by a revelation above.
The hard top would need trimming? What trimming? Where, and how much?
My ideal due to where I live would be to have a hard top on for roughly four months -- November through February. Although I have a little game I started with Cabrio in September 2001 and have continued it to this day with Eos of having at least one top-down day every month, there aren't really too many of those type of days in those four months around here. I would prefer with my ideal to have the hard top in place for heat retention and an easier-to-deal-with solution for the crappy frozen precipitation and winds.
Is it possible to lower the roll bar slightly at its mounting points to accommodate the hard top? _________________ Now: 2003 New Beetle Turbo S / 1990 Single Cab Transporter / 2014 Tiguan R-Line 4motion / 2013 Tiguan S / 2002 Golf GLS TDI
Past: 1974 Thing Acapulco / 2009 Eos Komfort / 1997 Jetta GT / 2002 Cabrio GLX / 2002 Passat GLS / 1971 Super Beetle / 1993 EuroVan MV Westfalia / 1981 Pickup LX / 1985 Vanagon / 1986 Jetta GLI |
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Semper_Dad Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2005 Posts: 3506 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:30 am Post subject: |
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I can't give too much information on what needs to be trimmed on a hardtop to clear a stock VW roll-bar because I don't have a hardtop. However, the threads I've seen seem to show some trimming of the top's reinforcement to clear the hoop over the driver. A bit of "notching out" more or less.
It gets even more confusing when you have to deal with all the non-standard roll-bars or hardtops. Too many variables to consider to figure it out over the Internet.
The best way to go about it would be to get ahold of an unmodified hardtop and build or modiify a roll-bar to it. I'm sure you could lower the center hoop so that it actually supports the roof and still clears your head. Properly designed, you could even eliminate the center support struts required on some hardtops.
I enjoy my soft-top and the options it gives me. Not sure if a hardtop really gives you all that more advantage with regards to safety, noise, or comfort. Only advantage I could see is if you had to park your car outside and had to deal with snow loads. From an aesthetic reason, a hardtop would be a nice change-up from time to time.
Some hardtops (non-VW types) require removal of the outside tie-down loops which is something I'd never do. _________________ Walküre Restoration Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=737492 |
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yellow73kubel Samba Member
Joined: August 17, 2008 Posts: 789 Location: Columbia, SC
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Posted: Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Here is my notched hard top. This was done long before I got the car. Actually, one of the metal cross beams fell out at some point and hit my buddy (riding shotgun) on the head.
Lowering the front hoop is not a very good option. It is already well within the 3in safety margin, and I am only 5'10". Angling it back would work far better, and gives you a more ideal seat belt mount point.
I personally do not like the hard top much. It is ugly and heavy, and makes the Thing feel more like a cage. For winter conditions however, the fiberglass does make a better insulator. It will clear up most of the usual soft top drafts, and keep the snow out.
Yarkle, a seat belt hoop is a good idea if you have racing-style seats and belts. For low backs and/or regular shoulder belts, the bar would be way too dangerous because it would have to sit right behind your head. What you could do is a combination rear grab handle and seat belt mount coming off the back of the b-pillar hoop. |
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Yarkle Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2009 Posts: 1218 Location: the Hills of Western Maine
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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Id be using highback beetle seats, so ill try the grab handle idea. Thanks!
Itd be similar to the ones on the red roll cage in the above pictures? |
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Semper_Dad Samba Member
Joined: May 14, 2005 Posts: 3506 Location: Indiana
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Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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Yarkle wrote: |
Id be using highback beetle seats, so ill try the grab handle idea. Thanks!
Itd be similar to the ones on the red roll cage in the above pictures? |
I think they would be a nice addition. Just make sure they don't interfere with your side curtains. There are ones you can temporarily install as well.
_________________ Walküre Restoration Thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=737492 |
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Yarkle Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2009 Posts: 1218 Location: the Hills of Western Maine
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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hmm...that picture isnt what i was visualizing...I was thinking more like the yellow line i have drawn on this pic:
Its crude, and not to scale, but I think thats the general idea. The tab would go in the upper left of the yellow part.?
If anyone can draw this out better, or draw it out how i should do it? |
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Captain Spalding Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2005 Posts: 2519 Location: . . . in denial.
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, this takes me back . . .
Here's the first drawing I ever posted on the Samba:
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It's a play thing Samba Member
Joined: November 19, 2009 Posts: 575 Location: Dayton, Nevada
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Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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You can buy grab handles at any off-road shop. _________________ It's not the size of your shop, it's what comes out of it that counts.
I've been playing with my thing ever since I got it... |
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