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anthracitedub
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2007
Posts: 3241
Location: Michigan
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 Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:44 am Post subject: Fuel treatment and O2 sensors |
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Kind of a rant, but curious to see if anyone else has had issues with O2sensor failure after using fuel additives.
I was in a flaps getting some products and noticed Lucas oil gas treatment...
I thought I'd treat my truck and my wife's car to a bottle since I was on my way to fuel up.
I added my bottle at fill up and put the other bottle in her car when I got home.
This was on a Friday... The following Tuesday I got a service engine light, had it scanned. One of four o2 sensors failed.
Then Wednesday, my wife said her cars check engine light came on and had it scanned... O2 sensor failure as well!
I think this is quite a coincidence. I've never had an issue with my truck and my wife's car has pulled a evap code before.. Just a leaky gas cap seal.
I now have learned my lesson... Never buy that kinda garbage for a vehicle ever again! |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 8:30 am Post subject: Re: Fuel treatment and O2 sensors |
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| anthracitedub wrote: |
Kind of a rant, but curious to see if anyone else has had issues with O2sensor failure after using fuel additives.
I was in a flaps getting some products and noticed Lucas oil gas treatment...
I thought I'd treat my truck and my wife's car to a bottle since I was on my way to fuel up.
I added my bottle at fill up and put the other bottle in her car when I got home.
This was on a Friday... The following Tuesday I got a service engine light, had it scanned. One of four o2 sensors failed.
Then Wednesday, my wife said her cars check engine light came on and had it scanned... O2 sensor failure as well!
I think this is quite a coincidence. I've never had an issue with my truck and my wife's car has pulled a evap code before.. Just a leaky gas cap seal.
I now have learned my lesson... Never buy that kinda garbage for a vehicle ever again! |
A couple of things here:
1. What kind of car and what was the code number. I have never seen an 02 sensor FAILED code. I have seen 02 sensor out of range code on some vehicles or one that simply lists 02 sensor fault.
The system only has a couple ways of knowing a sensor has anything wrong at all....either a broken wire, incorrect resistance or incorrect output as measured by incorrect fuel mixture usually checked by the diffsrence between upstream and downstream sensors if you have them......and those can easily be a failed catalyst causing the difference they are measuring.
2. Chemicals are only described as sensor safe....if they do not have heavy metals or silica....which will contaminate and destroy the catalyst metals in both the 02 sensor and catalyst.
This does NOT mean the chemicals may not simply CLOG the 02 sensor or catalyst.
3. Lucas fuel oil additive is a top cylinder lubricant. Read the msds and tech data sheets. It uses oils and solvents designed to remove carbon.
One thing you should know.....is that the fastest way to kill a catalyst or an 02 sensor....is by burning oil through the engine or running hideously rich. This is precisely why modern vehciles warn in big bold type...to NOT overfill the oil.....and to NOT add raw fuel through the intake.
The other really common way to clog 02 sensors and catalysts is to have a PCV system failure.....and suck lots of oil vapor into the intake.
Top cylinder lubricants do exactly qll of that. They have high flash point/flame temp ingredients designed to dislodge carbon and blow it out the exhaust. You can wreck a sensor or the cat with Seafoam as well as other products.
Its not that Lucas is probably a bad product.....its that you should not be adding top cylinder oiloil based lubricants to the fuel of a modern car with a cat and and 02 sensor.
This is also a warning for the very best gas additive out there...Techron. the note that you should not use more than three bottles without changing the oil because it puts unburned carbon and solvents into the oil in blowby....and by default.....if its in the exhaust snd blowing by the rings during starting and warmup....its blowing through the exhaust system onto your 02 sensor and catalyst.
You might be able to get away with simply cleaning your 02 sensor with a strong fast drying solvent like MEK or Berrymans B12 Chemtool. Ray |
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anthracitedub
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2007
Posts: 3241
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Fuel treatment and O2 sensors |
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Thanks for the tips... I'll try cleaning the sensors... I'll have to have the code rescanned because I can't remember the #...only it was bank 2 sensor1.
One vehicle is a nissan titan, other is a buick rendezvous...never had any trouble with them.
I've used that same product before in other cars years ago with no O2 sensor problems. Just found it strange that this situation popped up.
I've learned a lesson here... Just leave well enough alone😊. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel treatment and O2 sensors |
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| anthracitedub wrote: |
Thanks for the tips... I'll try cleaning the sensors... I'll have to have the code rescanned because I can't remember the #...only it was bank 2 sensor1.
One vehicle is a nissan titan, other is a buick rendezvous...never had any trouble with them.
I've used that same product before in other cars years ago with no O2 sensor problems. Just found it strange that this situation popped up.
I've learned a lesson here... Just leave well enough alone😊. |
No...you did just fine....but I suspect you are correct that the Lucas (and probably any additive would have done this)...kicked it over the edge.
Bear in mind...that any oxygen sensor that has been driven on for considerable miles is nowhere even close to "new". They are heated to fairly high temps and have a burn in time so output either increases or drops...either way..it changes and is within spec. Over time...the amount of operative metals in the sensor slowly oxidizes away and sooner or later the sensor will die of old age.
Sometimes any major fuel event may kick it over the edge.
Bear this in mind as well. You are in Michigan?....its cold weather just like it is in Iowa now (but even colder). Start up is ugly rich and you are also running on winter mix fuel with LOTS of additives to help it vaporize. That already puts the whole system in a different frame of mind...if not a disadvantage.
Your post tells me something right there. The Nissan Titan has actually three 02 sensors....maybe four. Sensor #1 is in the exhaust manifold up high near the engine. Sensor #2 will have a left and right bank and is down below right before the catalyst.
So it sounds like the one that failed anytime it lists sensor #1...is one of the upper sensors. This fits the profile....as its right downstream of the exhaust valves and running very rich with "new" solvents and lots of carbon in the exhaust could easily just clog the 02 sensor.
If its very cold outside.....and you have any long warm up idling....it is most probably a combination of running very rich, sensors warming up slowly and winter fuel mix. I do not think adding the additive was the wrong thing to do...just a perfect storm of winter weather fuel issues, a little age on the sensors...and the additive.
If the cars are still running OK...try this first....reset the codes...and drive for at least 70 miles...and see if the code reappears. If the check engine light does not come on....read the codes anyway and see if there is a pending/intermittent code. If so....its the what I noted above.
If the light goes on again...pull the top 02 sensor and clean with a fast evaporating cleaner. Berrymans chemtool or mass airflow sensor cleaner work best. Re-install...reset the codes and drive 70 miles again and recheck.
The last time I bought a new 02 sensor...I got the factory part # and bagged Bosch part with factory connectors for about 50% less than dealer here http://www.oxygensensor.net/
Ray |
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anthracitedub
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2007
Posts: 3241
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel treatment and O2 sensors |
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| Thanks Ray... I think your perfect storm theory is right on. With the fuel and treatment, warm ups and colder temps... Seems like it could very well be the recipe for some rougher emissions. It's supposed to be a balmy 34 tomorrow...I may try my luck at cleaning that sensor... Btw, it is the first one in the line. |
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20279
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel treatment and O2 sensors |
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My wife's 95 Subaru would always kick the check engine light on at the first really cold start of the season. A test would reveal an O2 sensor as the issue. I learned to ignore it and reset the light. It usually didn't happen again until the next cold season a year later.
Ray, your explanation of the winter fuel blends and cold temps causing a perfect storm are near verbatim of that which I heard from my great mechanic friend.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel treatment and O2 sensors |
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The other related issue I have gotten on my 2012 golf.....but only when the outside temp is in the low single digits or below 0....during longer stationary warm ups mind you.....is a check engine light and fault code.....for the manifold absolute pressure sensor.
It gets condensation ....very small amount of water mixed with oil.... over its very tiny orifice. Its just downstream of the TB. So very cold weather coupled with a little moisture...coupled with fuel vapor that creeps back up the intake after short runs and shut downs.....and the perfect storm or freezing rain with high humidity the night before....dropping into deep freeze in the morning.
The fuel vapor film does not evaporate off....mixes with a little water vapor znd turns to goo. Normally a warm up will melt it away and its clean. But...near 0 weather and it turns to mayonnaise and wony move.
Had to look that one up online. A quick pull of the sensor and a spritz of carb cleaner.....and it goes away. Ray |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16884
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel treatment and O2 sensors |
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what was the code?
DO NOT CLEAN IT
they are not washable. please post the code. year, make model and engine size please
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my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 11:06 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel treatment and O2 sensors |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
what was the code?
DO NOT CLEAN IT
they are not washable. please post the code. year, make model and engine size please |
Yes....not washable in the sense that you cannot submerge or get it wet with solvents or water. This was just wiping the mayo goo away from the port opening. It was simply gelled over. Its a common issue on the 2.5L five cylinders due to the location of the sensor.
Its also a common dealer item as I found. The dealer generally replaces it at cost...when the car is out of warranty.....your cost  .
It takes less than a minute to remove and clean the end though....and 90% of the time on these engines.....that is all it requires.
If fixed it instantly. I will check my book and find the code for your.
But yes....if you actually have to clean out a plugged orifice....meaning goo is down in the microscopic hole.....its done.
Its a 2012 golf....2.5L. This goes for both major engine codes. The trouble code was P0106.
The dealer also noted that on some cars....mostly passat.....they had issues in cold weather with the PCV valve which deposited oil on the MAP sensor.
My PCV was no issues. It may havd been a small am ount of oil.....but smelled of fuel and obviously had some water vapor mixed. There are a few threads on the virtex about this as well.
Catch it quick.....and its just a quick external wipe. Drive on it for a,while and its beyond cleaning. Ray |
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anthracitedub
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2007
Posts: 3241
Location: Michigan
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:01 am Post subject: Re: Fuel treatment and O2 sensors |
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I had the code rescanned on my titan...
it was P2A03 bank 2 sensor 1. From what I read about the code it is a A/F ratio was off. Maybe an air leak or injector...
The engine runs really good... The employee let me clear the code myself and I've only put about 30 miles on it so far... But if the light comes back on I'll dig into the system a little bit. |
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73sports
Samba Member
Joined: September 26, 2004
Posts: 2107
Location: Warrington, PA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:56 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel treatment and O2 sensors |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
The other related issue I have gotten on my 2012 golf.....but only when the outside temp is in the low single digits or below 0....during longer stationary warm ups mind you.....is a check engine light and fault code.....for the manifold absolute pressure sensor.
It gets condensation ....very small amount of water mixed with oil.... over its very tiny orifice. Its just downstream of the TB. So very cold weather coupled with a little moisture...coupled with fuel vapor that creeps back up the intake after short runs and shut downs.....and the perfect storm or freezing rain with high humidity the night before....dropping into deep freeze in the morning.
The fuel vapor film does not evaporate off....mixes with a little water vapor znd turns to goo. Normally a warm up will melt it away and its clean. But...near 0 weather and it turns to mayonnaise and wony move.
Had to look that one up online. A quick pull of the sensor and a spritz of carb cleaner.....and it goes away. Ray |
VW has a software update available that lets the car ignore the implausible signal from the map sensor when all of that is going on. IF you want it..
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Central Jersey VW Society |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 10:09 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel treatment and O2 sensors |
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| 73sports wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
The other related issue I have gotten on my 2012 golf.....but only when the outside temp is in the low single digits or below 0....during longer stationary warm ups mind you.....is a check engine light and fault code.....for the manifold absolute pressure sensor.
It gets condensation ....very small amount of water mixed with oil.... over its very tiny orifice. Its just downstream of the TB. So very cold weather coupled with a little moisture...coupled with fuel vapor that creeps back up the intake after short runs and shut downs.....and the perfect storm or freezing rain with high humidity the night before....dropping into deep freeze in the morning.
The fuel vapor film does not evaporate off....mixes with a little water vapor znd turns to goo. Normally a warm up will melt it away and its clean. But...near 0 weather and it turns to mayonnaise and wony move.
Had to look that one up online. A quick pull of the sensor and a spritz of carb cleaner.....and it goes away. Ray |
VW has a software update available that lets the car ignore the implausible signal from the map sensor when all of that is going on. IF you want it.. |
Thank you...I read a few notes here and there that something was available like this.
I have not had the problem again. But from what others mentioned in other forums......this happens in weather that goes quickly from humid and moderate....to very cold....and its mainpy a condensation issue. The sensor it not damaged.....just obstructed. When it gets warm enough....it cleans up. But being that it can be weeks before it gets warm enough... I can see the value of the software bypass on the fault signal. Ray |
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