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hulken
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 8:27 am    Post subject: Rear wheel bearing Reply with quote

Been looking for a new rear wheel bearing for my 412, and came across this;


http://www.bughaus.com/wheel8.html

The original type bearing has the part # 411501283A, and this part # is 411501283E. To my knowledge the letter only says this is a newer version of the part, is this correct?
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2016 7:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear wheel bearing Reply with quote

These used to be a real problem to find back in the 90s. The problem was that they fit very few applications. The primary mfgs back then were FAG and SKF. The bdarjjgs were wo good that when I found them in good shape in the wrecking yard I would pull the bearing with its outer race and get excellent miles after cleaning.

Those two companies being German.....used to only manufacture these bearings and others of limited need.... in the off season....meaning during the holiday season of August and September to keep the production lines flowing.

I believe they fit a few more applcations now. I have not been having any proboems finding them for reasonable prices. Typically FAG and SKF are of about equal quality and Timken has been a very close second. Brands like national and CR do not seem to hold up as well.

The part # is 411-501-283F....and the Timken part # is LM78310A......and are currently available online in many places for an average of about $25- $33 each. The quality is quite good. I bought six of them last year and am storing them submerged in autoamtic trans fluid until I can get to installing them in a few months. Ray
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hulken
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:21 am    Post subject: Re: Rear wheel bearing Reply with quote

So the bearing with suffix "E" can replace the bearing with suffix "A"??
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: Rear wheel bearing Reply with quote

I will post some pics of the parts boxes I got last year. They are Timken and have stickers with part # 411-501-283 "F"......and the manufacturer bearing part # stamped on the box is Timken LM78310A .....which is what is actually stamped on the bearing.....and I have that in my records from the 1990s and and have been using those since the 1980s with no problem.

I will look in the parts book and see what the difference is with the A verus the F letter prefix in the VW #.....but I have had no issues with the Timken #.

Wait...correction. the outer RACES are part # LM78310A.....and that corresponds to the part # 411 501 283 "F".

I have no listing in the VW parts book for a seperate race. It lists only the part # 411 501 283 "A"...as a complete bearing and race unit..

The Timken part # for the BEARING itself is LM78349A.

One thing I have found over the years......is that the Timken bearings are very accurate and very high quality....but because of how the rollers are radius'd.....they cannot tolerate misalignment.
So the preload spec used must be spot on. If the preload cannot be met.....then as the books suggest you need to either swap the bearing or change out the axle spacer. In the few times this has happened.....usually swapping to a different outer race or bearing adds the extra .0005" or so needed to make the preload/ turning torque correct. Once they are broken in for 30-50 miles....you need to recheck the play and tighten.

The issue is that the radius on the end of the rollers on Timken are sharper than FAG and SKF. if the bearing cocks by even a small amount....over a period of thousands of miles it wears a groove on the race.
I will post pictures. Ray
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:52 am    Post subject: Re: Rear wheel bearing Reply with quote

I am not sure about the differences in the "A", "E" and "F" prefixes...but they all seem to work.

I will have to dig through the Timken catalog...which can be an all day affair....as its huge and since its a PDF and not interactive....and seems to be a zillion pages.... Rolling Eyes it can be an all day affair.

The primary thing(s) that I think may be different with these bearing letter prefixes is either the ID or the radius for the ID...which is no issue for us as the bearing is not a pres fit on the shaft. As long as its a smooth fit...just like the front wheel bearings....its should function. However, the radius going into the ID bore could have a decent affect on the preload. I will make aneffort to look these up.

My earlier mistake in the part # is because I bought 6 bearings last year...maybe the year before... Laughing . They were old stock and the guy who sold them to me took each bearing out of its box and checked them...then put them with a race and put them into the race boxes.

In the pictures you can see that the part # is 411 501 283 F and the box # from Timken is LM78310A. You can also see that the races alone were originally priced at some time...at $ 14.90 list each. He sold me the races and bearings for $27.15 each...which is quite a good price.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Part # with prices

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As you can see these boxes with the part # are all outer races. The person I bought them from repackaged complete bearing sets to save shipping package size.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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These are all old stock...bearings and races are made by Timken in France. there were some very minor rust spots on the faces but none on rollers, cages or inner races. I probably bought and cleaned them just in time. Another year on the shelf...and they would have been damaged.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is one of my older used bearing sets. I bundle old and new together like this.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Then they go into a vat of fresh Automatic transmission fluid for long term storage. Should be good for several millenia.

Warning...even with good polypropylene containers...you will find the need to change containers about every three years as they will start getting soft.

The roller bearing radius difference:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Timken...notice the slightly sharper edge to the roller.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


SKF...very generous and round radius (these are old used bearings....good for emergency use only)

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


FAG radius...somewhere in the middle...and over time...the FAG bearings all seem to have this smooth polished look to them. I think it is the best steel of the three. These are old bearings as well.

All said..I have never had any issues with Timken. They do not last quite as long...maybe 50K miels...but quality is excellent. Ray
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cdickman1
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 2:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear wheel bearing Reply with quote

I was working on repacking my rear wheel bearings this weekend and damaged one of the outer seals. Am having much difficulty finding part numbers for the rear bearing seals. Looking for the inner and outer part numbers if anyone can help me.

Thanks
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2016 4:01 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear wheel bearing Reply with quote

cdickman1 wrote:
I was working on repacking my rear wheel bearings this weekend and damaged one of the outer seals. Am having much difficulty finding part numbers for the rear bearing seals. Looking for the inner and outer part numbers if anyone can help me.

Thanks


The part #s I have :

VW: 411 501 315B

CR-550280

SKF-550280

Federal Mogul/National oil seals #1969

Size: 48mm x 63mm x 9mm.

If you look around online using the CR, SKF or FM #s you will find more than a few for aboit $6 each.

Oh...QUICK....THERE ARE TWO.....listed on Rockauto for 49 cents each....manufacturer close out!

Use the search function at the top of the page on rockauto.
Part #: 1969
Manufacturer: national
Part group: brake/wheel/hub
Part type: wheel seal
Search.
For the $6 in shipping you will make out like a bandit. Also just found it undef the 411/412 listing.

Also while you are there....look at other small items you may need in the future for dirt cheap they will bundle your shipping. Front wheel seals can be had for 49 cents to $2.
New rear wheel cylinders are $9- $14

Go through their list. Lot's of name brand parts for cheal. Ray
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hulken
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 3:09 am    Post subject: Re: Rear wheel bearing Reply with quote

I visited my local Volkswagen dealer today, and ordered two sets of bearings at $58 pr. set. Needed them quick, so I swallowed the higher price. Also ordered 4 sets on eBay for future needs, price ended at around $25 including postage and norwegian taxes.
Now I have to find the wheel seal!
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 7:47 am    Post subject: Re: Rear wheel bearing Reply with quote

hulken wrote:
I visited my local Volkswagen dealer today, and ordered two sets of bearings at $58 pr. set. Needed them quick, so I swallowed the higher price. Also ordered 4 sets on eBay for future needs, price ended at around $25 including postage and norwegian taxes.
Now I have to find the wheel seal!


These are little problems that can become quite helpful to others.

I will make it a point to look up the differences in bearings and make a thread to document it.
What we can also do as part of the thread....is document the differences in seal brands and part #s.

Overall....these seals are dirt cheap. If you find a few different brands.....please buy one of each as spares.....and lets take pictures and measurements.....type of seal lips....construction etc.

For example.....I have three brand new Federal Mogul/National seals....old stock....maybe early to mid 1990s. Unlike the VW part numbered seal.....they have a full metal outer shell with a cast in seal area.
The factory seal I have still in a housing is all plastic outer with ribbed outer and a cast in steel shell.

I do not know what I have in the spare trailing arms I have. I will order a few from Rockauto of different brands. At leas than $1 each.....it will be worth it. Ray
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19super73
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 10:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear wheel bearing Reply with quote

Rock Auto has the Timken brand rear bearings for $9.54CAD.

TIMKEN LM78349 {#411501283E}

And the race. TIMKEN LM78310A {#411501283E} Race Bearing $6.44CAD
_________________
1970 Campmobile [url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-47260.png]Click to view image[/URL]
1970 Fastback 1600 TL
1971 Doka [url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-14845.png]Click to view image[/URL]
1973 Super Beetle
1973 Westfalia [url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-31892.png]Click to view image[/URL]
1974 412 Variant
1975 La Grande Bug
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 7:19 am    Post subject: Re: Rear wheel bearing Reply with quote

19super73 wrote:
Rock Auto has the Timken brand rear bearings for $9.54CAD.

TIMKEN LM78349 {#411501283E}

And the race. TIMKEN LM78310A {#411501283E} Race Bearing $6.44CAD



Dang! Gotta love Rockauto!

May have to get a couple wpares. Ray
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19super73
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2016 2:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear wheel bearing Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
19super73 wrote:
Rock Auto has the Timken brand rear bearings for $9.54CAD.

TIMKEN LM78349 {#411501283E}

And the race. TIMKEN LM78310A {#411501283E} Race Bearing $6.44CAD



Dang! Gotta love Rockauto!

May have to get a couple wpares. Ray


Check your e-mail as well. They recently sent me a discount code to use up till Feb. No limit on number of orders.
_________________
1970 Campmobile [url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-47260.png]Click to view image[/URL]
1970 Fastback 1600 TL
1971 Doka [url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-14845.png]Click to view image[/URL]
1973 Super Beetle
1973 Westfalia [url=https://www.vw-mplate.com/mplate-31892.png]Click to view image[/URL]
1974 412 Variant
1975 La Grande Bug
1984 Vanagon
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hulken
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 5:49 am    Post subject: Re: Rear wheel bearing Reply with quote

Bearing has arrived!

The one I bought from my local VW dealer was Timken, and the "older" version bought through ebay was SKF.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:23 am    Post subject: Re: Rear wheel bearing Reply with quote

Interesting....the radius quality on that Timken bearing looks better.....smoother. Is there a country of manufacture listed on that bearing? Ray
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hulken
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 2:25 am    Post subject: Re: Rear wheel bearing Reply with quote

The Timken bearings are manufactured in France, and has the 411501283E part #.

The SKF bearings are manufactured in Germany and has the 411501283G part #.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:12 am    Post subject: Re: Rear wheel bearing Reply with quote

hulken wrote:
The Timken bearings are manufactured in France, and has the 411501283E part #.

The SKF bearings are manufactured in Germany and has the 411501283G part #.


Since I am now back from the holidays......I will look these part numbers up in their respective manufacturers catalogs this weekend.

This is more than just passing interest.
I have used virtually all brands available over the years in various 411 and 412 I have owned and driven. At one point in time when I lived in Atlanta GA......which meant lots of demanding curvy roads and high speed traffic.....and mileage of 50-70k per year.....It was not uncommon to replace at least one wheel bearing per year. Not whole sets....but one here and one there.

During this time.....I did find a few differences I could not really put my finger on. For instance....for a couple of years.....all I could get when I needed it was outer races. And....only CR brand (which is now part of SKF).....and National.

I used the races with whatever brand of bearing I had. They did not last well. Even though the part number was a cross match.....that does not mean that the differences that there may be between different bearing part numbers did not contribute to short life. I could never really put my finger on whether it was a poor quality race....or a,difference in the bearing I used with it....or both.

The reason it is important......is because I did notice that some races did not fit in the trailing arm as tight as they should. Interestingly......the inner race position next to the CV joint always fit tight and had to be driven in and out....no matter what brand race I used.

This brings me to why this is important right now. Even though the books we have do not mention much about this.....I believe that the race on the brake hub end recieves more lateral/rarial force....and over time it slightly deforms or stretches the bore in the trailing arm.......and due to this.....I percieve that the fit of the outer bearing and seal cover is critical to holding the bearing race in tight.

In other words....I think there needs to be almost an interference fit...a light one....of maybe .001" to .002" at most....between the bore in the outer seal cover ....and the race where it contacts the thin edge of the race.

There are lots of possible variations here.....one being dimensional variations in the race itself....differences in the bearing,cover...and possible differences in the thickness of the backing plate that is sandwiched between the arm and the bearing cover.

Its important to me...because i am also right now.....laying out the details for rear disc brakes and the fit/thickness of the caliper bracket that will be sanwiched between the outer bearing cover and trailing arm in plafe of the backing plate. If there are lots of differences in the bearing races.....it can affect this.
.

I have no data in the parts book I have for any letter prefix differences. The only part number I have in my book....as noted....is 411 501 283 A. Ray
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titan3c
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:25 am    Post subject: Re: Rear wheel bearing Reply with quote

will the 521425A work on the 411? Bob
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:38 am    Post subject: Re: Rear wheel bearing Reply with quote

titan3c wrote:
will the 521425A work on the 411? Bob


Hello Bob.....I am looking for a cross match list for that bearing. It is an FAG part #. Give me a few.

As to your other question about the rear window valance project.....I am hoping to have a c couple done by the end of June. I have one half of the mold done....I am finally about take a shot of laying one in.
I have finally decided that the easiest way is a first sprayed layer of a pretty good/stiff truckbed liner to make the outer shell shape....then a second inner layer using fiberglass cloth sprayed with the liner.....then a final thin inner layer. Then de-mold and hand trim.
Ray
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: Rear wheel bearing Reply with quote

Hello Bob, yes....the 521425A should work just fine.

In fact...that is quite lucky if you can get one. I do not think I have seen an FAG bearing for the rear of a 411/412 since I was in high school. Very high quality.

It is ideal if you can get the FAG outer race as well but any of them should do.

You can see the FAG # in this list from the Samba archives. Do not mind the corrections in red. That was an e-mail to Everett last year to show him a change that needed to be made.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Do you need bearings? I know someone who has a few if you would like me to put you in touch with him.

Since we are talking about the rear wheel bearings....I think its a good idea to mention the greasing and preload issues with the rear end.

These bearings are big

Ray
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titan3c
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Rear wheel bearing Reply with quote

There is four of them listed on here in the parts section, and I bought them. They were new old stock still in the original boxes still lubricated and wrapped. Also included the races. Very reasonable price----all four for $20.00. Bob
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