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cdennisg Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004 Posts: 20278 Location: Sandpoint, ID
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Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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Unfortunately, I have zero real world experience with IRS installs in a split bus.
My recommendation would be to contact one of the sellers on here that provide kits to bolt in that IRS stuff, and ask their advice.
I can say that rear discs aren't really necessary. If you want to improve rear braking using stock VW parts, install a type 3 IRS rear suspension, along with those larger and wider rear drums. Better braking bolted on with stock VW parts. _________________ nothing |
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KOMBI NIKO Samba Member
Joined: February 03, 2013 Posts: 278 Location: Australia
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VolksNerd Samba Member
Joined: September 18, 2019 Posts: 12 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 11:02 am Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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I'm in a sticky situation...
I bought a 62 Double Cab and getting my feet wet restoring it. I decided to drop the motor to get better access to it but have found that the motor will not come off the transmission because it looks like the prior owner put an insert in place of a nut on the top left (driver-side) bolt and then welded the bolt head to the transmission.
So I'm dropping the the entire drivetrain to get at it. (Motor with the Transmission) I was already planning on dropping it a mild 3.5 inches up front and about 4 inches in the rear and upgrading the transmission to an FFT. Here's where I need some advice...
I wasn't planning on dropping it right away and I'm new to this whole restoration stuff. From the research I've done online so far I can tell there are many factors to take into account to make sure the drop is done correctly with the mods I want to incorporate so to help you out...
- I want to upgrade the front brakes to discs
- I'm thinking of going to a 5 on 130 bolt pattern for my wheels.
- I want to go with a 17inch wheel as well
- I don't know how wide of a wheel I want at this point
- I have an IRS setup already and I don't seem to have the RGBs anymore
- and like I said, I want to go to an FFT
So my questions are:
- To accommodate a disc brake and drop up front, how much of a narrow do I need on the front beam? 2 or 4 inches? Can a front disc kit be fitted to an un-narrowed beam up front with the drop and still have enough clearance in the wheel arches for the tires to not rub?
- Are IRSs able to accommodate the drop that I want without modification? all I see in the kits online are swingaxle set ups with an FFT...
- I haven't researched this yet, but can a I get away with changing the rear drums to a 5 on 130 from the current wide 5 spec without replacing the entire brake (backplate, shoes and brake / "wheel carrier"...)?
- I'm thinking of buying parts from Wagens West since I live in Central Oregon. I've heard some good things about them. any testimonials? other shops to go through? If I have to replace the motor, which is likely since I want to go to taller gears, is CB Performance the only shop? seems like they have the best rep... are there other air cooled motor manufacturers to check out?
- Thoughts on Bolt-on rear drop kits as opposed to weld-in?
- What else am I missing?
Thanks. I'm trying to find a local car club to join to get in person advice but I'm brand new to this so I'm asking here. Plus with COVID cancelling all the car shows connecting with VW people is not as easy as it was. Thanks for any and all advice. |
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NUTSFORBUSES Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2016 Posts: 560 Location: I don't recognize it anymore
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Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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There's a lot of guys with more experience than me, but I did that last year to my 64 (different spindles (1 ton) )
I do have IRS-late 60's bug w a mid mount<you need that!
I have a stock Beam with flipped spindles and SACO disc's-no mods needed.
The IRS is easy to drop, just index the torsion bars for a small drop, but you must follow indexing as best as possible, in that you may have to do it more than once to get your desired height in the back.
I kept my stock beam b/c it rides well, I don't like shorter beams.
I am using KONI's all around and they are adjustable, again $$$ and you have to experiment with the rebound. You must change the bolt pattern as you say unless you find wheels w a wide 5 pattern>doubt it.
I went with 15" x 5.5" wide smoothies from CIP1, had the centers cut-out and moved outboard which lets me run 205/60 & 65's - the ride is pretty plush. You will need to look around for your bolt pattern for your 17", but I would think you may be sacrificing the ride a bit especially IF you go low profile tires. Looks cool, but rides harder. I went Koni so I could adjust the front clearance issue, then AC industries disc's in the back make it easier to remove the rear wheels, front is no issue. Stock shocks are great, but not for me and my tires.
Koni seems to be a good move for me, and a stock VW sway bar, not the 7/8" after market is too stiff. I would go to shows and ask someone who has done a similar mod, their help may be paramount. Or someone may yet speak-up. good luck. |
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cdennisg Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004 Posts: 20278 Location: Sandpoint, ID
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Posted: Mon Oct 19, 2020 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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MrExcitement wrote: |
I'm in a sticky situation...
I bought a 62 Double Cab and getting my feet wet restoring it. I decided to drop the motor to get better access to it but have found that the motor will not come off the transmission because it looks like the prior owner put an insert in place of a nut on the top left (driver-side) bolt and then welded the bolt head to the transmission. |
I am not in much of a position to help with most of your questions, but this one interests me. Not sure it is really possible to WELD a steel bolt to a magnesium trans. I suspect something else is happening here. Maybe some epoxy as an attempted fix or something?
Any chance you have a photo? _________________ nothing |
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ronjonlasvegas Samba Member
Joined: October 08, 2004 Posts: 901 Location: Las Vegas, NV
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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:47 am Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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MrExcitement wrote: |
I'm in a sticky situation...
I bought a 62 Double Cab and getting my feet wet restoring it. I decided to drop the motor to get better access to it but have found that the motor will not come off the transmission because it looks like the prior owner put an insert in place of a nut on the top left (driver-side) bolt and then welded the bolt head to the transmission.
So I'm dropping the the entire drivetrain to get at it. (Motor with the Transmission) I was already planning on dropping it a mild 3.5 inches up front and about 4 inches in the rear and upgrading the transmission to an FFT. Here's where I need some advice...
I wasn't planning on dropping it right away and I'm new to this whole restoration stuff. From the research I've done online so far I can tell there are many factors to take into account to make sure the drop is done correctly with the mods I want to incorporate so to help you out...
- I want to upgrade the front brakes to discs
- I'm thinking of going to a 5 on 130 bolt pattern for my wheels.
- I want to go with a 17inch wheel as well
- I don't know how wide of a wheel I want at this point
- I have an IRS setup already and I don't seem to have the RGBs anymore
- and like I said, I want to go to an FFT
So my questions are:
- To accommodate a disc brake and drop up front, how much of a narrow do I need on the front beam? 2 or 4 inches? Can a front disc kit be fitted to an un-narrowed beam up front with the drop and still have enough clearance in the wheel arches for the tires to not rub?
- Are IRSs able to accommodate the drop that I want without modification? all I see in the kits online are swingaxle set ups with an FFT...
- I haven't researched this yet, but can a I get away with changing the rear drums to a 5 on 130 from the current wide 5 spec without replacing the entire brake (backplate, shoes and brake / "wheel carrier"...)?
- I'm thinking of buying parts from Wagens West since I live in Central Oregon. I've heard some good things about them. any testimonials? other shops to go through? If I have to replace the motor, which is likely since I want to go to taller gears, is CB Performance the only shop? seems like they have the best rep... are there other air cooled motor manufacturers to check out?
- Thoughts on Bolt-on rear drop kits as opposed to weld-in?
- What else am I missing?
Thanks. I'm trying to find a local car club to join to get in person advice but I'm brand new to this so I'm asking here. Plus with COVID cancelling all the car shows connecting with VW people is not as easy as it was. Thanks for any and all advice. |
If you want to go with 17 inch wheels, you should probably get the 4 inch narrowed beam to fit the wheels. The most common size for 17 inch wheels that guys use on buses would be 17x7 but you have to be careful about the offset to ensure they will fit. I have bought stuff from Nate at wagenswest and he builds great stuff, but isn't fast and the order will take longer to arrive that the time he quotes. I also recommend Russel at Old Speed in CA for the beam, lowered spindels and brakes. If you have a rear IRS setup you can lower that and should not need any additional parts unless you plan to add rear disc brakes. I recommend you talk to Nate and also talk to Russel and then decide. _________________ September 1964 Standard Sunroof walk through SWR/BG original paint. |
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NUTSFORBUSES Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2016 Posts: 560 Location: I don't recognize it anymore
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Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 6:46 am Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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Another small detail to keep in mind; Do the front first, it's a small concern but it can matter. When you drop the rear (I'm guessing the ratio here, 1" in back/1/4 inch in front) when you drop the rear, the front of the Bus raises/bumper height, not wheel clearance. When you jack up the rear you can measure how the front bumper drops. I have a slight rake for cargo |
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VolksNerd Samba Member
Joined: September 18, 2019 Posts: 12 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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Here's some pics of the stubborn bolt and "nut". I see that what I thought was weld material is not actually weld. Whatever it is it is keeping my wrench from fitting over the bolt head and keeping it from moving.
Thanks for the replies! I really appreciate it |
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cdennisg Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004 Posts: 20278 Location: Sandpoint, ID
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Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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OK. That setup can be a pain in the ass to remove. The engine case has an insert installed in place of the nut that was used before the offset doghouse cooler came into play. That trans has that little ledge just under the bolt head that was used to keep the original bolt from spinning while the nut was tightened.
Now, you need the right too for the job. That looks like it might be a 15mm head, but maybe 17mm, hard to tell for sure. You will need a matching socket (12 point might be best) then a universal joint, then about three feet worth of extensions so your socket wrench handle ends up below the car and near the front of the trans.
It will try your patience, but you gotta get it outta there.
Then, when the time comes to put it back in, use an Allen head bolt and the same u-joint/3 ft extension/socket handle for install.
Looks like this...
_________________ nothing |
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NAES Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2003 Posts: 2120 Location: AREA-52 Southern Killafornia
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Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2020 5:11 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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It's been a while since I've slammed a bus and didn't see any info on notching the front of the frame to clear tie rods.
Does anyone have those measurements handy?
Specifically
1) How far back and how high up to place the notch?
2) How large a piece of pipe to use?
My beam is out right now so I can't just measure what I have.
Thanks all, NAES _________________ Barndoor Mafia
Box On Wheels
SBS #00 |
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stevecul8er Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2006 Posts: 100 Location: Honolulu,Hawaii
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Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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NAES wrote: |
It's been a while since I've slammed a bus and didn't see any info on notching the front of the frame to clear tie rods.
Does anyone have those measurements handy?
Specifically
1) How far back and how high up to place the notch?
2) How large a piece of pipe to use?
My beam is out right now so I can't just measure what I have.
Thanks all, NAES |
CAVEAT-I did this. Check my math but ended up with 5.5” from brake hose attachment and 4.75” from the bolt.
Have not been able to drop Bus down due no tubs, so will verify with the tires off when the engine is back in and able to to work on front end. I’ve been driving for years with no problem but then again haven’t got low enough (no tubs) to check it out .
If anyone find the measurements are no good-please advise and I will delete this misinformation.
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NAES Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2003 Posts: 2120 Location: AREA-52 Southern Killafornia
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Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:44 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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^^^^^ Perfect! Thanks man! _________________ Barndoor Mafia
Box On Wheels
SBS #00 |
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NUTSFORBUSES Samba Member
Joined: December 08, 2016 Posts: 560 Location: I don't recognize it anymore
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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KONI SHOCKS: Just installed 4 Koni's from Bus Depot "RED Special D"(made in Holland) My bus is flipped and IRS. After taking them off twice to tune the rebound I am Blown away ! As stated by some who have installed them, they change the ride like no other and a much smoother ride. I have more control and feel so much more confident driving. It does encourage you to go a little faster, but I hold back b/c I know I'm a bit of an asshole. Nearly $100 per shock, not cheap but most definitely recommend. FYI. |
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mandraks Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2004 Posts: 7050 Location: Lawrenceville, Ga
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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:55 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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NUTSFORBUSES wrote: |
KONI SHOCKS: Just installed 4 Koni's from Bus Depot "RED Special D"(made in Holland) My bus is flipped and IRS. After taking them off twice to tune the rebound I am Blown away ! As stated by some who have installed them, they change the ride like no other and a much smoother ride. I have more control and feel so much more confident driving. It does encourage you to go a little faster, but I hold back b/c I know I'm a bit of an asshole. Nearly $100 per shock, not cheap but most definitely recommend. FYI. |
glad you like them. _________________ regards
Uli
----------------------------------------
'53 3-Fold Oval, L35 Metallic Blue, looking for a narrow hatch panel |
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Zacrash65 Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006 Posts: 7 Location: Salt Lake City, UT
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Posted: Sun Dec 06, 2020 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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It sounds like you've got exactly the setup I'm going for - IRS in a split bus (59 Panel) with flipped spindles. I don't plan on narrowing the beam or adjusting it any lower. Just an overall 3.5-4" drop.
My plan is to run Empi discs up front, but I'm still not sure what the best brake situation is for the rear. Staying original wide 5 rims.
I'm looking at a Wagenswest or Wolfgang bolt on, adjustable IRS kit.
Could you tell me the specifics of what you did, what you used, trans, engine size, tire size, etc?
It would help a ton! Thanks!
NUTSFORBUSES wrote: |
KONI SHOCKS: Just installed 4 Koni's from Bus Depot "RED Special D"(made in Holland) My bus is flipped and IRS. After taking them off twice to tune the rebound I am Blown away ! As stated by some who have installed them, they change the ride like no other and a much smoother ride. I have more control and feel so much more confident driving. It does encourage you to go a little faster, but I hold back b/c I know I'm a bit of an asshole. Nearly $100 per shock, not cheap but most definitely recommend. FYI. |
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Ohhmaha Samba Member
Joined: April 26, 2020 Posts: 3 Location: Los Angeles
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Posted: Mon Dec 07, 2020 8:57 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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just went with a whole new suspension myself
front: 4' narrowed adjustable beam, dropped spindles,4 piston wildwood disc brakes
rear: irs conversion, short axles, 4 piston wilwood brakes
tranny: pro street plus freeway flyer
tire set up for front:165/45r 15
tire set up rear: 175/65r 15
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Hurricore Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2020 Posts: 1
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Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 6:22 am Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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hello Samba family,
I have a question regarding using a pre 62 bus front wagenwest beam narrowed, on a 65 bus.
I am very new so not sure what the difference are. My research only points me to the 22mm and 20mm tie bolts?
if Id use the full beam up to the brakes would it work? so torsion bars and spindals included
thanks so much for your help.
best regards
Mike |
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sled Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2005 Posts: 6179
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Posted: Wed Jan 20, 2021 7:44 am Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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Hurricore wrote: |
hello Samba family,
I have a question regarding using a pre 62 bus front wagenwest beam narrowed, on a 65 bus.
I am very new so not sure what the difference are. My research only points me to the 22mm and 20mm tie bolts?
if Id use the full beam up to the brakes would it work? so torsion bars and spindals included
thanks so much for your help.
best regards
Mike |
yes, it will work just fine. _________________ drive your split. |
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Zacrash65 Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2006 Posts: 7 Location: Salt Lake City, UT
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Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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I'm lowering a '59 Panel. Flipped spindles, IRS
I'm not finding an exact answer to this in searching through the forums...
I know about adding and subtracting inner and outer notches, etc.
I just want to know what angle I need on the IRS spring plates for a level stance.
- I've already flipped the spindles - that's it for the front, no adjustable beam.
- My spring plates are not adjustable so I'm trying to get this as close as possible when I install them.
- I'm not über concerned with the slight rake caused by different tire sizes, but as long as I'm getting technical...
fronts: 185/60/15 rears: 195/65/15
Thanks!
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cdennisg Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004 Posts: 20278 Location: Sandpoint, ID
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Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: How to lower a Bus and all lowering questions |
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Zacrash65 wrote: |
I'm lowering a '59 Panel. Flipped spindles, IRS
I just want to know what angle I need on the IRS spring plates for a level stance.
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Since this is not a stock setup, there are no real exact numbers by which to set things. You will need to eyeball it, let it settle, then adjust as necessary. Even with all stock parts, using a specific angle often does not work the first time, since all of this stuff is 50-60-70 years old and not nice and fresh as shown in the manuals.
I have not done an IRS install myself, but the general rule of thumb I have gone by with setting up the spring plate angle on a lowered bus is to have about 5/8" space between the bottom of the spring plate, and the top of the stop that is part of the torsion housing. That is the spot that normally has the spring plate resting on it when you jack up the bus with stock rear suspension.
See photo, and the spot where the spring plate is contacting the stop at the bottom. If you set up yours to have roughly 5/8" between these two parts, you will be in the ball park of matching the ride height of your drop spindles up front. And, you will likely need to take it apart on one side or both to get your final settings. That is the advantage to adjustable spring plates, they save time.
_________________ nothing |
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