Radiusing Rear Brake Shoes

[70coupyel]

I would like to hear from someone who has had their Vanagon rear brake shoe radiused to match their drums.

1) What is your opion of having this done? Was it worth it?

Also I'm wondering if the standard of today's current brake shoes are geometrically correct to have this radiusing done. Example: If lining is thinner than OG and the steel part of the brake shoe are not redesigned to allow for this. Then there is a different centerlines for the drum and the steel shoe base.

2) So after having them radiused did everything look correct?

I found out about a very old school brake only shop is close to me.
_________________

[dhaavers]

No guru here, but radiusing certainly will give best performance immediately
versus taking several months driving for your brakes to wear themselves in.

Regarding the quality of shoes, it's a bit of a crap shoot these days...you don't
always get what you pay for. Hopefully someone will have recommendations for
better/best brands, but the shop should certainly be able to tell you if what you
have will work well or if you should keep shopping...??? <shrug>

Go for it...get down to that shop & talk to the pros!

- Dave
_________________
86 White Wolfsburg Westy Weekender
"The WonderVan"
<EDITED TO PROTECT INNOCENT PIXELS>

[Ahwahnee]

You may even find that shop is able to re-line your old shoes which could give you an even better result.

[Zeitgeist 13]

You can also try to do this yourself, which I found useful the last couple times I did T2/T3 rear brakes. It really helps to pre-bed in the shoes and get that first parking brake adjustment close to where you want the setting.
_________________
Casey--

'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik?

[Terry Kay]

There isn't any brake shoes manufactured that are pre-radiused to your drums.
It's simply impossible.

But you have disc brake pads on the back end of your Van as notated in the title of this thread ?
No radiusing required on disc brakes I always have the discs set up on the brake lathe to be sure if they are true, prior to hanging the new pads.

But, if you have drum brakes on the rear as 99.9% of the folks have, you have two selections here;
(A) buy a set of shoes , hang them, and hope they burnish themselves into the drums inner diameter in short order, prior to heat warping the drums.

(B) have the drums cut, have the shoes fit to the drums inner diameter.

Done.
There will not be any possibility of burning the shoes or warping the drums because the entire radius of the shoes fits the drums inner radius perfect.

Be sure to free up the frozen lower shoe piviots, lube them with some copper anti seize, so they allow the shoes to float inside the drums properly, every time you hit the brakes.

There is no such animal as a industry standard for the correct radius of the shoes.
The manufacture of the shoes has no idea of where your drums are currently, and even if they were new, they usually do not match the face of the shoes dead nuts on, allowing the entire face of the shoes to make entire contact to the drums perfectly
_________________
T.K.

[djkeev]

We've BTDT, I myself have adjusted the radius (arc for us simple folk) of my shoes using sand paper at home, but here is a "fun" link about rear drum brakes........

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5...;start=140

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[70coupyel]

Well I have a complete set of parts to replace all of my rear brakes sitting in my garage. Just wondering who here can speak from experience of having this service done on their van.

Look we all have looked at out rear brake shoes and seen that they wore on the upper 1/4 or 1/3 (slave cylinder side) of the brake lining. Is this because the arc( or radius) of the steel part of the brake shoe is too small? Meaning that the lower side has no chance of touching by design?

And please no lower shim reference. Or rear disk set ups. This is not about any of that.

The whole thought of my thinking is that to milk as much performance out of the stock set up.

It's all in geometry as designed. Maybe this means that the OG may be different that what is being offered currently. Just a though.

Maybe ask the guys/gals that see a lot of rear shoes. What do you see as far contact area of rear shoes?

Maybe someone that has a bunch of old Vanagon brake shoe laying around could lay a bunch side by side and we might be able to see a difference.

Anyone else that may have some technical information to shed some more light in this specific area?
_________________

[djkeev]

I personally feel the wear is due to the shoe being unable to move as the brakes are applied.
Rust, dust build up, lack of lubrication in key spots.

But that's simply my humble opinion based upon personal experience, observation and reading.

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[Terry Kay]

Dave has offered a large selection of reading from an older group of posts, did you get into it, absorb & understand what the radiusing does how it prolongs the life of the shoes, and gives you 99.9% contact?
If not dive into it, there is a Lot of info posted.

I radius drum brakes on any brake job.

They ride right, last longer, gives you better braking than just relying on only a portion of the shoe on the drum.

I gotta ask this question;
Why would anyone save worn out shoes to take puctures of ?

The used brakes go into my round recycling file.
Junk.

Have you had the drums checked for being true?
Have them cut a hair?

After you get donr with that, you can do a visual on the shoe contact area's.

What happened to the old timer that cuts drums & shoes you mentioned?
He's local, why not ask him what he thinks?
That would be a wise move.

Or go over to YouTube and check out a bunch of info posted there.
Google the process.
Even more info.

Don't forget to free up thr frozen lower piviots so the brakes float inside the drums properly.

Then you won't be eating up just the top of the shoes prematurely.
_________________
T.K.

[tpinthepack]

This is how old school guys did it, Most likely how Terry does it also. Wayne Purdy Motors in Clearwater does mine and he has one of these old machines. It collects dust most of the time.


Link

_________________
TP in the Pack (I am a cyclist)
1968 Manx N.O.S. w/ Barrett Chassis
1960 Single Cab 1914 w/ 40 DLRA's
1990 Vanagon DOKA
1972 Super Beetle
1979 Super Beetle Convertible
2011 Porsche Cayenne

[Tom Powell]

[IdahoDoug]

Makes me wonder if some of us drum brake folks would be interested in a vendor that we could provide a precise drum I.D. measurement to and they'd send us out a set of matched drums at higher cost than just buying random shoes at the local FLAPS. Is that possible, or would the difficulty of proper measurement make it unlikely to get the full benefit? Or would it perhaps make sense that if you are considering putting new drums/wheel cylinders/shoes on all at once we could encourage one of these old school folks to do a package mail order deal?
_________________
1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[zeohsix]

I thought the EPA seized all those old lung cancer generators.....brake shoe arcing machines are few and rare commodities in these times.....I still remember the clouds of asbestos in the machine shop I worked in while going to college
_________________
I'm Cheap! I'll build that Syncro Westy myself and save money but, my labor is "FREE" especially if I ever go to sell it! One thing is I will know the quality of the parts and labor that went into the build and rest better when I'm actually driving said Westy down the road!

[Terry Kay]

First things first;
There is no way a shop would send you cut drums to match your measurements.
They'd have nothing to check their work to, and if you read the shoes size wrong, or if the shoes you have have high or low spots, the drums would never match what you have.

If you listened to the model A guys, they machined the drum, and then cut the shoes to it.

Real bad idea.

You should have your drums trued, then break out your DA and cut the shoe to fit.
Take a look a Daves post on how he went about it, he got it done by hand.
Simple.

You'd be screaming out loud if the shoes didn't sit flat in the drums after getting them radiused.

Ahh-- next guy in line.
Think 3-M dust mask, where anything you'd do would be safe.
Gotta use you head a little.
_________________
T.K.

[djkeev]

The problem isn't "should" it be done but quite simply that few if any do it.

Old time mechanics are vanishing ...... being replaced by keyboard kids who can read an OBDII scan.

Actually creating or repairing things is on the way to becoming a lost art.

My grandfather used to pour his own babbets on his old model T....... never taught me, no need for me to know this skill in the 1950's.

I'd be hard pressed to find you an auto machine shop in my part of NJ.
With the mindset of NEW and the habit of simply throwing away and purchasing new or mass rebuilt items from retailers, there is no need for a local shop any longer. Most stores around here don't even carry basic items such as plastigage any longer. No market for it.

Turning disc or drums? Just put on new ones.

The EPA didn't take machines away, they just aren't needed any longer by the masses so they went to scrap.

To repair or rebuild isn't profitable and exposes you to all sorts of liabilities.

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[E1]

I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing things this way.

Photography has taken the same road. My last camera was wood and leather, and none of today's digi-snapper "photographers" would have a clue what was involved in that dying art. Same thing happened before that to pinstriping and sign work.
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman

[Terry Kay]

"Depends" on the sign work.

Some folks want, / demandone shot hand painted lettering on their doors, some don't care, & vinyl is good.
Pinstripes not following body lines , is at a premium nowadays.

I have a list of guys waiting come spring.

Dave, I've said this a bunch, ya gotta have them drums checked before you leave the store.
But, here in the new millennium, crazy convenience kinda guys that don't know what a good parts store looks like will continue buying drums on the internet, and soon wonder why the back end of the van is going boom ,boom, boom, as soon as they hit the brakes.

Nuts.

Good parts stores are dying too because of the internet phenomena, who can compete with the made in Bombay prices?
Nobody.
What they all fail to mention is how many problems they had after the fact.

Sad.
_________________
T.K.

[djkeev]

It's not a lack of knowing what a good parts store is like........ it's having one to use!

I live in a very affluent area $$'s.
People don't fix their cars around here. It's back to the dealer for warranty repairs or if it's serious....... it's a new car.
The old trade-ins are wholesaled out of the area to lesser income areas for there's no market for them here.

As a result I've watched parts houses close and machine shops vanish. In their place spring up Auto Zones and Advanced Auto stores which are to me......... worthless.
Sure NAPA is around but only a shell of their former competence.
My store has many shop tools but they sit idle today.

The World is changing around here.

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[Terry Kay]

So, what happened to the newb that was asking the questions what to do with the parts he bought & are laying around ?

I sure hope he's doing some reading on the brake thread you popped up with Dave.

Lot's of good stuff in that one, I should look up the shimming the lower pivot.

It was from that thread I think the radiusing the rear shoes started.

Nobody here had never even heard of such a thing, let alone understood it.

For good operating rear brakes this process should be done.
_________________
T.K.

[70coupyel]

I was referenced this shop for a project car.

I have not talked to them about Vanagons.

Just throwing a couple of questions out there to see what folks are doing around here.

It's been a long time that I have had this done.

http://www.chtopping.com/
_________________