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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20278
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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 Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain |
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| modok wrote: |
Only craftsman tools I bought this decade was chisels.
A year ago Stanley bought Irwin from rubbermaid.
My sentiment of Rubbermaid buying Irwin and what they did with it, was I hope they burn in hell, and I broke tools and returned them in spite, so they would lose money, and haven't bought a thing from them in ten years after that.
Irwin sold it for 3x what was paid, it appears they doubled their money on it. I hate that. What does it mean? I don't know. |
Rubbermaid products are one of the few things I see at Wal Mart that are still made in the USA.
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e&m_ghia
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2011
Posts: 418
Location: NoVA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
Rubbermaid products are one of the few things I see at Wal Mart that are still made in the USA. |
This seems to apply to low-density/low-value (plastic) merchandise, that you see in the big-box stores... I've always wondered whether the only things you see in Walmart, that are made in USA... Are the things that cost more to ship long distances, than to make... |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26789
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:18 pm Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain |
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If I die, and find myself in the afterlife, there will be 5wr visegrips in my pocket, designed and made by Peterson in Nebraska.
I don't expect there will be any tupperware.
Some things, sure, but moving production of such an iconic 100% american tool to china was STUPID STUPID STUPID |
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enjoyther1de
Samba Member
Joined: December 19, 2010
Posts: 1279
Location: chino,ca
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| Posted: Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:31 pm Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain |
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The bottom line is the bottom line.
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31379
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:08 am Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain |
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| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| Just found out yesterday as we received new management that every Friday we will spend a minimum of 2 hours sweeping,mopping and cleaning, 5 S beginning |
Where I worked "5S" was implemented, and I was "chosen" to head up this for the department. This is just one thing that is trendy right now, and we got rid of about $200K of equipment just in my department, just thrown out. Some I got to salvage (think "used parts") and sold those for about $2K so far. The head of the department didn't like any old stuff, one of his biggest quirks, he always was getting capital to replace stuff in perfect operating condition, like because the software was old or didn't match other units.
5S also means lists of where everything is, outlines for equipment and stuff, audits, protocols, etc. I understand the reason for a neat and orderly work area, but like most things, this is just taken too far. After a year the program was abandoned because to implement this to be compatible with ISO protocols, it must be completely formalized and followed.
So once again a management "sure, we should do this" decision that didn't affect management themselves was implemented.
So once again a Japanese idea like Total Quality is making trends in the USA now. How's that Japanese economy these days !!!
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:48 am Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| Just found out yesterday as we received new management that every Friday we will spend a minimum of 2 hours sweeping,mopping and cleaning, 5 S beginning |
Where I worked "5S" was implemented, and I was "chosen" to head up this for the department. This is just one thing that is trendy right now, and we got rid of about $200K of equipment just in my department, just thrown out. Some I got to salvage (think "used parts") and sold those for about $2K so far. The head of the department didn't like any old stuff, one of his biggest quirks, he always was getting capital to replace stuff in perfect operating condition, like because the software was old or didn't match other units.
5S also means lists of where everything is, outlines for equipment and stuff, audits, protocols, etc. I understand the reason for a neat and orderly work area, but like most things, this is just taken too far. After a year the program was abandoned because to implement this to be compatible with ISO protocols, it must be completely formalized and followed.
So once again a management "sure, we should do this" decision that didn't affect management themselves was implemented.
So once again a Japanese idea like Total Quality is making trends in the USA now. How's that Japanese economy these days !!! |
When all of this....5S (which is actually a minor mindset piece of the whole equation).....Kaizen....Kanban.....Six sigma....baseline lean principles......ISO, JIT and associated QA principles ......are CORRECTLY implemented (which takes years to do correctly).....and only to the level required.....and ONLY after taking into account ALL of the REALITIES of manufacturing EACH product that is being made.......and all of the above WILL be different for each and every product made and their associated material and squipment set.............these methods DO work.......and can work very well.
The problem comes...usually when those tasked to implement these systems.....have no real long term experience with every aspect of the job. They are just going by the "book(s)"......and are being judged by benchmarks....and paid by level of implementation.....not by real success.
One of the books that is used as the hallmark of all of this.....the bible of it all....is "The Toyota Way"......and too many people in too many plants have literally been seen walking around with this book under their arm.....and quoting chapter and verse....in situations that have no relation to what Toyota was doing.
By the way.....remember the debacle of the unintended acceleration of Toyota vehicles from a few years back?
A new analysis done shortly afterwards in the lean mfg industy....and verified by Toyota employees......showed the root cause was because Toyota at every level.......drank so much of their own Kool-aid......and made decisions based strictly by all of the tenets of the "Toyota Method"..........that they ignored any data and opinions that were contrary to that method.....because it was believed that the method itself was infallable.
The method was Toyota.....the method was wise....anything not supported by or supporting the method ....or fitting into the method.....was seen as poor data. Because design decisions were made by the method......and pass/fail limits were dictated by the method.......those decisons and pass/fail limits were seen as absolute. Anything that didn't fit the model was ignored as an anomaly.
Toyota swallowed the method so hard.....they started ignoring the BASIC data and testing methods......that the "Toyota Method" was designed to reinforce.....not replace.
Classic overuse, overreach and mis-implementation from the top down. FAIL.
Three years ago now I quit an excellent position here as process design manager in a medical device manufacturing facility.to go to a much smaller printed electronics plant in Connecticut that produces a wide range of products. I was going to move there and run the plant.
The first inkling that it was f'd up.....was when the CEO and COO were both walking around all day every day.....with the Toyota Method book under their arm....literally.
This was a job shop. Every device they made had very different materials and methods. Toyota...while they made a wide range of "cars"......only makes one thing really......CARS.
Not every method they used can be equally applied to every manufacturable item.
I left at 90 days. It was 90 days......of 15 hours per day...6 days a week......correcting lean manufacturing mindset.
So sad. I see this in far too many places. Ray |
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Brian
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Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:55 am Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain |
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On the topic of sears; working in the warehouse was my second job out of high school. Worked there for 3 years and they were having issues since the day I started. A lot of things are getting stream lined to make it less of the business it used to be. I remember dealing with a lot of you old timers who came in with hopes to get your tools or vacuum repaired on site. Unfortunately they changed everything up to get you stuff the cheapest way possible. Shame, but that's the world we live in now.
You're better off buying tools from the swap meet than Sears.
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babysnakes
Samba Member
Joined: August 19, 2008
Posts: 7107
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain |
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I agree with the swaps or garage sales. just look for the older stuff.
It used to be when you had a ratchet that went bad, the clerk would get a new one off the shelf. The last time I went to replace one, they had a box of refurbs under the counter, they wouldn't replace my old one with new. I saw that as the beginning of the end (that and the K-Mart deal). That was 5-6 years ago. |
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11056
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
By the way.....remember the debacle of the unintended acceleration of Toyota vehicles from a few years back? |
Slight off topic detour.
While.. I have no data to confirm what Toyota was blind to on that subject..
99% of the cars/trucks that come into our service dept with "uncontrolled acceleration" .. .. have aftermarket slide around, poor fitting and/or multiple stacks of floor mats..
I'm even able to easily duplicate a floor mat to accelerator pedal issue on multiple if not every occasion that I've encountered.
I've even had a few customers that claimed..insisted the throttle pedal on drive by wire systems.. were moving on their own..
Musta been the aliens ..
Nevertheless.. my point.. USE THE RIGHT FLOOR MATS DESIGNED FOR YOUR VEHICLE>>> and NEVER stack floor mats..
Thats my PSA for today..
.
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Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
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cdennisg
Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 20278
Location: Sandpoint, ID
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 11:38 am Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain |
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| babysnakes wrote: |
I agree with the swaps or garage sales. just look for the older stuff.
It used to be when you had a ratchet that went bad, the clerk would get a new one off the shelf. The last time I went to replace one, they had a box of refurbs under the counter, they wouldn't replace my old one with new. I saw that as the beginning of the end (that and the K-Mart deal). That was 5-6 years ago. |
Yep. But the last time I had a bad 3/8" drive ratchet, they gave me options. I could take the refurb from under the counter, I could wait a couple of days and they would refurb mine, or I could just take the refurb kit and do it myself. I chose option three.
My local Sears is a pretty well run place. They recently expanded into hardware and some houseware type stuff. I never think to go there for those things, but the selection is pretty good. Next time I am in there I will ask about the store's future. I know the owner has fought hard in the past against shutting down or even slimming down.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:06 pm Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain |
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| VOLKSWAGNUT wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
By the way.....remember the debacle of the unintended acceleration of Toyota vehicles from a few years back? |
Slight off topic detour.
While.. I have no data to confirm what Toyota was blind to on that subject..
99% of the cars/trucks that come into our service dept with "uncontrolled acceleration" .. .. have aftermarket slide around, poor fitting and/or multiple stacks of floor mats..
I'm even able to easily duplicate a floor mat to accelerator pedal issue on multiple if not every occasion that I've encountered.
I've even had a few customers that claimed..insisted the throttle pedal on drive by wire systems.. were moving on their own..
Musta been the aliens ..
Nevertheless.. my point.. USE THE RIGHT FLOOR MATS DESIGNED FOR YOUR VEHICLE>>> and NEVER stack floor mats..
Thats my PSA for today..
. |
 Very well spotted!...and that was one facet of the final investigation that this had happened....and was also one of teh risk factors pointed out by the engineering staff during one of the MANY FMEA's (Failure Mode Effects analysis).....that were performed during design and testing phases.....and were patently ignored as trivial by the Toyota design staff.
There were people at Toyota that KNEW this was one of the risk factors...and it was blatantly ignored..because it would have required a slight redesign of a couple of components to make sure it was not possible for this to happen.
Their system concurred from FMEA scoring...that this was so remote of an issue...that it was STATISTICALLY insignificant. I mean.....who would use anything other than the Toyota factory floor mat's right?  
And back on track here.....a lot of this same type of analaysis was being bandied about back in the early 90's when Sears was designing their automated/digital catalog system. They assumed from data points alone...what needed to be in the catalog and how the average person would use the catalog. Missed th boat on many levels.
Ray |
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Brian
Samba Moderator
Joined: May 28, 2012
Posts: 8340
Location: Oceanside
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:20 pm Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain |
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| cdennisg wrote: |
Yep. But the last time I had a bad 3/8" drive ratchet, they gave me options. I could take the refurb from under the counter, I could wait a couple of days and they would refurb mine, or I could just take the refurb kit and do it myself. I chose option three. |
They keep a box of refurb kits in the back, we'd have to pump out as many as we could during the slow seasons. As long as the ratchet body is okay they get all new internals.
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wcfvw69 
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain |
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I think the other thing that hurt Sears Craftsman Line of tools was most every tool maker guaranteeing their tools for life. I had some no name 1/2" breaker bar in my box. I couldn't remember where I aquired it. I snapped the end off. The tool only had two letters on it. I searched the internet and found the company out of Washington. One email later, I got a RGA number and they swapped it out, no questions asked. I did have to pay the $15 bucks to ship it but it was worth it.
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Zundfolge1432
Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004
Posts: 12468
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain |
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| Brian wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
Yep. But the last time I had a bad 3/8" drive ratchet, they gave me options. I could take the refurb from under the counter, I could wait a couple of days and they would refurb mine, or I could just take the refurb kit and do it myself. I chose option three. |
They keep a box of refurb kits in the back, we'd have to pump out as many as we could during the slow seasons. As long as the ratchet body is okay they get all new internals. |
Just for the record they all do it. Snap-On, Mac, Proto, Cornwell, all the so called premium brands install repair kits rather than exchange the tool, however if you go back far enough some of the parts are obsolete then they have to offer a replacement. Be careful buying used some are military or industrial issue and carry no warranty. We are losing a sears here which has been in business since 1955. Perhaps sears should go full circle close all the brick and mortar stores and do mail order, beat amazon.com who has aped the original concept. Look at this oddball craftsman tool
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e&m_ghia
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2011
Posts: 418
Location: NoVA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
....a lot of this same type of analaysis was being bandied about back in the early 90's when Sears was designing their automated/digital catalog system. They assumed from data points alone...what needed to be in the catalog and how the average person would use the catalog. Missed th boat on many levels.
Ray |
Seems that, when I was trying to use their system... After the 90's, granted... It wasn't any worse than several others. The only brick-and-mortar store that has a useful website, for me now-days, is actually Home Depot... (Too bad they don't have more merchandise that I want...)
It seems that Sears was somewhat dumber than most of the brick-and-mortar chains, in recent years. (This became most evident with the purchase of Kmart, without a coherent idea of what to do with it...) But a lot of "physical stores" are pretty sad places, now-days - particularly department stores. So Sears is just accelerating down the path a bit faster than some others.
I think I'd miss them more on the basis of nostalgia, than anything else. They've been burning good will on a lot of their product lines, from the interactions I've had with them in recent years. High-end Kenmore dishwasher that leaked... (Wrecking kitchen floor sub-surface, in a way that was only obvious a week or two after warrantee expired.) Got tires for E's WRX, which were mounted & balanced well... (Probably because the tech's liked the WRX.) But utilitarian tires for my utilitarian Subie were never balanced on first visit... They put their "Sears Hardware" chain out of business already, and I have no inclination to go hassle a shopping mall, to get tools no better than those available in Lowes...
Last few times I went into one, looking for various specific things. They didn't have what I wanted. So it goes. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain |
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| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| Brian wrote: |
| cdennisg wrote: |
Yep. But the last time I had a bad 3/8" drive ratchet, they gave me options. I could take the refurb from under the counter, I could wait a couple of days and they would refurb mine, or I could just take the refurb kit and do it myself. I chose option three. |
They keep a box of refurb kits in the back, we'd have to pump out as many as we could during the slow seasons. As long as the ratchet body is okay they get all new internals. |
Just for the record they all do it. Snap-On, Mac, Proto, Cornwell, all the so called premium brands install repair kits rather than exchange the tool, however if you go back far enough some of the parts are obsolete then they have to offer a replacement. Be careful buying used some are military or industrial issue and carry no warranty. We are losing a sears here which has been in business since 1955. Perhaps sears should go full circle close all the brick and mortar stores and do mail order, beat amazon.com who has aped the original concept. Look at this oddball craftsman tool
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Actually....that would be a really cool tool....helpful for several types of machines in my industry that I have worked on.
A short ratchet for breaking loose something like the cross bolts on injection molding molds......with a built in spinner handle that should work faster and more ergonomically than reaching for the damned goose neck spinner handle.
Ray |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31379
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 3:17 pm Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain |
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| babysnakes wrote: |
| It used to be when you had a ratchet that went bad, the clerk would get a new one off the shelf. The last time I went to replace one, they had a box of refurbs under the counter, they wouldn't replace my old one with new. I saw that as the beginning of the end (that and the K-Mart deal). That was 5-6 years ago. |
Within the last year I took a worn-out Phillips #2 screwdriver into local Sears 1.5 miles away, and clerk gave me a brand-new one from the shelf supply.
I guess if I break my 1/2-inch breaker bar tightening my flywheel within the next 2 weeks, we'll see what I get instead. I've actually recently got a Harbor Freight lifetime 1/2-inch breaker bar of 25 inches long, may use that. But the Craftsman one and 4-foot extension pipe did loosen the flywheel (which had blue Loctite) and the rear axle nut that my electric impact wrench could not budge (its limit is 250 ft lbs).
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Busstom
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Joined: November 23, 2014
Posts: 3853
Location: San Jose, CA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain |
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| modok wrote: |
Only craftsman tools I bought this decade was chisels.
A year ago Stanley bought Irwin from rubbermaid.
My sentiment of Rubbermaid buying Irwin and what they did with it, was I hope they burn in hell, and I broke tools and returned them in spite, so they would lose money, and haven't bought a thing from them in ten years after that.
Irwin sold it for 3x what was paid, it appears they doubled their money on it. I hate that. What does it mean? I don't know. |
Irwin pissed me off about 8 - 9 years ago, when they outsourced their Vise-Grip manufacturing to China. Fortunately, I noticed it right on the cusp, when the display racks of various retailers had mixed inventory of US-made and Chinese-made. The packages of the former had proud "Made in USA" graphics, the latter, of course not. I ran around town buying up any US-made Vise-Grips I could find...yes, I'm whacked. And so they all sit in the bottom drawer of one roll-away, and that's where I like 'em. Bastards.
Craftsman, or as I like to call 'em, Crapsman, lost me when they started off-shoring their hand tools. Most of my Crapsman are from the 80's and 90's, and show their battle scars.
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VOLKSWAGNUT
Fastest VW Belt Changer
Joined: October 14, 2007
Posts: 11056
Location: Flippin' a Belt........ .... Off-n-On ... NC USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain |
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Some of the Sears Craftsman tools were made locally to my home. (Gastonia NC plant location) and were made right along with the Easco hand tools, (later Danaher) and others.
As they closed up thanks to outsourcing.. and over 200 lost their jobs.. I slowly started seeing the "Made in the USA" being lost on those tools as well.
I used to be able to pick up a Craftsman tool and tell by the code if it was made near home.. Id go through a rack to find them to buy them too..
Three local Sears at malls closed up two years ago.... one was less than a mile from my work which made it nice to go grab and or warranty what you needed.. without a receipt .. another tale of days gone by..
Harbor Freight sailed into town last year.. along with a boat load of cheap stuff...... fact.. China is beating us at our own game.. Hell just about every freakin' producing country is..
Go ahead.. keep on supporting them..
I will still try my damnedest to buy American made tools.. sad fact.. there are not many of them really left.. so as a last resort.. have to succumb.
Still amazes me.. we Americans.. support those who were once our enemies..
Pearl Harbor didn't work.. so they got us with tape decks, Hondas, Toyota's, Samsungs, ..you name it.. chances are we all own some of it..
How bout those ole Nazi wagons.. we all love .. Like it not.. that's its routes.. and you can not dispute it..
While I was not even a gleam in my parents eyes or thoughts in the 40's .. I am simply amazed.. how quickly VW as a German company.. took off so soon in the USA after.. WW2
So as for Sears to be circling the drain so to speak.. .. is not a shock at all to me.. Its just another.. we've all killed.. and took a shit on to circle to bowl with the others.. by being cheap ass and having no moral loyalty..
I only hope.. it happens to Walmart (and some others) as well.... It went from a great "Buy American" idea.. straight to.. hell..
I seriously doubt.. THAT will ever happen.. we Americans .... are simply.. WAY to far gone now..
.
_________________
aka Ken {o\!/o}
Its your vehicle- stop askin' for approval-do what YOU like for cryin' out loud
Better to roll em' how you want and wear em' out-than lettin' em' rot out
Its about the going not the showing
Rebuilt to drive not decorate
WANTED: Local Eatin' Joints, Triple D for TheSamba contributions here http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=570510
Search "VOLKSWAGNUT" on YouTube since you cant watch a "certain" BELT change video round here
Usually and often edited
Last edited by VOLKSWAGNUT on Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:44 pm; edited 4 times in total |
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EverettB
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 69827
Location: Phoenix Metro
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| Posted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Sears Circling the Drain |
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| Zundfolge1432 wrote: |
| Perhaps sears should go full circle close all the brick and mortar stores and do mail order, beat amazon.com who has aped the original concept. |
I don't know if they can do that - My understanding is they had their chance to do that many years ago and be #1 online and messed it up.
I suspect it would be very hard to catch up now.
Aside from their sales, Sears appear to have billions in property holdings. I guess they could use that to expand online sales and try but Amazon has billions coming in from web hosting so they have other income sources too.
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