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Which one is the proper NSU type 32?
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difrangia
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2024 1:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

Some or all of these may have already posted, but I didn't see it in the thread. I've been fascinated by early automotive history of all manufacturers since a youngster, and in particular VW and FIAT. Dug this up out of Hans Rudiger Etzold's 1985 book ' The Beetle- Chronicle of the People's Car - Volume II'. One of my favorites in my small library.

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wagen19
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2024 11:34 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

Sorry, the following text is from Lennert VW, early post:

Secondairy evidence:

As I have mentioned my two sources; The Beetle. a Comprehensive Illustrated History of the World's Most Popular Car by Keith Seume and The Millennium Bug also by Keith Seume, both mention that two cars by built by Drauz and one by Reutter., no mention of Weinsberg.

The only source which mentions the existance of a Weinsberg car is in Bernd Wiersch book: "Die Käfer-Chronik". He mentions that the remaining one in the zeithaus is made by Drauz which is incorrect. Therefore this source is unrelaible.

Last but not least. Another samba member named IIIA-0426 mentioned that he has a letter between Fritz Von Falkenhayn (the one who comissioned the Typ 32) and Karl Rabe (most of us know who he is alreday). the letter is dated january 12 1957 and is written on the occasion of the anniversairy of the Reutter company. IIIA-0426 said earlier in this thread that there was no mention of Weinsberg in that letter. I don't have a copy of that letter, however it would be much apprecaited if someone who has one to post it here because it would be of great interest to all of us. Since I don't have a copy of set letter I have to take IIIA-0426's word for it, I see no reason for him to lie about this since he mentioned that he's been studying the typ 32 for 15+ years.

So this was my "case" for those who read throug it all, thank you and I hope you can add evidence to my theory or dismantle it.[/quote]


MY NEW TEXT beginns from here:

Has Drauz ever built a body for a type 32?

In the book 50 year Chronicle of Drauz in 1950, there is nothing mentioned.
True or out of political reasons?
We have not seen any contract, or date of pics, up to now. Would NSU or Porsche, as long as Porsche is in the Reutter building let Drauz make bodies, or
The book is still for sale, I talked with the seller and had sent him pics.
https://www.zvab.com/Jahre-Karosseriewerke-Drauz-Heilbronn-Stuttgart-Karosserie/31815391488/bd
Good luck all.
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wagen19
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2024 8:52 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

allsidius wrote:
Although there are some outward similarities between the NSU typ 32 and the first Volkswagens, the fastback body, the flat four and some flutings in the sheet steel, the volkswagen project was started more or less from scratch. It would be considerably more compact and efficiently packed, the engine would be less than 1 litre and so on. The NSU was more of a medium class car that would have sold for 2-3000 RM at least. But starting a car company from scratch requires incredibly large investment, both in prototyping and manufacturing facilities, the project never got close to production.

Much of the engineering of the Volkswagen went into production methods and tools, how to produce the most advanced small car with as few parts and in the shortest time possible. Just look at those pictures of the chassis stampings, so delicately designed for minimum weight and quick production.


Today I found this "official" source:
https://www.volkswagen-group.com/de/volkswagen-chr...trie-17353

So there we can read, 1934 only one NSU prototype was "presented" (not built) by Porsche. (the survivor)
About the V1 cars is said, there were many different technical specifications. No number of cars is given.
So it seems, at least 2, up to now believed to be NSU prototypes made by Porsche and others (Zundapp), VW now counts generally as Volkswagen V1 and V3 (VW 3) prototypes. (Or NSU stopped their contract with Porsche and played alone with these prototypes for a while.) No information about details or number of zundapp cars.
So probably the july 1935 the RDA presented V1 was based on an upgraded, but old Zundapp type 12 or NSU type 32 prototype and was still not a "real" new type 60 V1. (and all makes sense)
The V2 Tübingen-vert was presented the RDA in Feb 1936 along 2 Limousins. So it seems, the Tuebingen-pic was taken after winter 1935-36.

For me, it became and is a question of time, date, wether the type 12, 32, 60 V1, VW 3 prototypes and their derivates, were named as "Zundapp type 12", "NSU type 32", or "Volkswagen type 60".

Mystery car, body style:
in my eyes, the style is very similar with the dirty car and also the Zundapp vert.
This vert- body without wheels and frame was photographed at the Reutter factory, probably in early 1932. It´s said, the Zundapp bodies (all?) were Reutter and transported to Nuernberg in April 1932 and mounted there onto prepared frames.
So I assume, the mystery cars body was at least basically also built by Reutter, in combination with parts from the Zundapp vert and may be also with parts from the dirty type 32.
So it can be a deception or bluff to take a professional pic in front of the Drauz factory. I´m wondering, all Drauz factory doors seem to be closed, no traffic, no people there. Was this pic taken on sunday, or in summer, shortly after sunrise? If so, no wonder, Drauz has no info or documents.
It´s still possible, Drauz did afterwards some little work on the body, for ex, the leatheret skin and finish work.

If so, the known NSU survivor should be Drauz, if at least only one type 32 body really was made by Drauz at all. But it seems, that´s still not prooved up to now.

For me, the Zundapp type 12 Lim and the NSU type 32 survivor also look very similar. The rear fender look "identical" exept the spads.
From which date is the last pic of the type 12 lim prooved? Which type 12 was bombed at Porsche 1944? Is this story correct at all?

It also seems to be possible, Reutter made all type 12 and all type 32 bodies, all wood-leather bodies, as well as all steel bodies. What about that theory?

The type 32 Drauz pic can be some sort of bluff to fool NSU or the RDA, may be also the government, while the Porsche factory under which sort of pressure ever was, that time, imo.
Drauz made after the war many bodies for Porsche. What about documentation there? All infos forgotten and destroyed?

There are no pics with more than one Zundapp, or NSU known. For all the other types, there are many pics with more than one vehicle in pic.
The existence of a Weinsberg NSU was never prooved.

It seems, it was (and still is strictly) to avoid, to show pics of a connection of Zundapp or NSU based vehicles, with the new and only RDA-government-Porsche type 60 Volkswagens since 22.06.1934.
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wagen19
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 07, 2024 12:48 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

Since this is said to be the only photo of the front, I clipped it and did a little adjustment to make it somewhat clearer.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
[/quote]

Thanks for that.
NSU windscreen: it´s said, one NSU had a curved panorama windscreen, rounded going to the roof. (dirty car).
The lower area of dirty cars screen seems to be straight and different to the mysterys car, but the upper area can be the same style, I think.
Curved car glass, that time was a interesting and aerodynamic feature and interesting challenge.
Who knows or sees more?
By the way, is the date known when pic of the mystery car in front of the Drauz factory was made?
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2024 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

IIIA-0426 wrote:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Since this is said to be the only photo of the front, I clipped it and did a little adjustment to make it somewhat clearer.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 06, 2024 11:00 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

allsidius wrote:
I know they had made cars before, but the Porsche projects were something new to them, requiring substantial investment.

Bad wording is not a lie. It is a mistake. There is a difference.


For me, it makes no sense, that after the contract of F.P. with the RDA on 22.06.1934, F.P. kept their order for NSU forwards. In fact, the NSU was nearly the same size as the "government-volkswagen" and therefor caused a conflict situation with RDA, government and NSU.
NSU flat four engine 1500 ccm:
On one hand it´s said, Kales had this engine due to many major structural problems written of.
On the other hand, if it was a good success, as also was heard about all of the whole type 32, why not create a 1000 ccm down sized version for the type 60 V1 and V2...?
But look at the power, performance and top speed of the Type 32. Rather dissapointing, I think.
In 1934 for the "RDA-government-volkswagen" F.P. really wanted more a kind of a 2-stroke motorcycle engine, I think, or at least a 2 cylinder 4-stroke engine and no way a "flat four aircraft like engine" for the volkswagen.
That opinion had to be changed, after many versions of more or less desasterous ending A, B, C, D-engines were built and tested on autobahn hill up and down.
AND shortly after F.X. Reimspiess arrived at F.P. at 24.09.1934. He was the new and "fresh man", the new force, who turned the wheel and brought with his new flat 4 engine the whole team finally on the street of success and gave us "our" beloved early flat 4 volkswagen and 356 engines. Surprisingly calculator Kux gave his green light too.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2024 7:32 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

I know they had made cars before, but the Porsche projects were something new to them, requiring substantial investment.

Bad wording is not a lie. It is a mistake. There is a difference.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2024 5:12 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

allsidius wrote:
Although there are some outward similarities between the NSU typ 32 and the first Volkswagens, the fastback body, the flat four and some flutings in the sheet steel, the volkswagen project was started more or less from scratch. It would be considerably more compact and efficiently packed, the engine would be less than 1 litre and so on. The NSU was more of a medium class car that would have sold for 2-3000 RM at least. But starting a car company from scratch requires incredibly large investment, both in prototyping and manufacturing facilities, the project never got close to production.

Much of the engineering of the Volkswagen went into production methods and tools, how to produce the most advanced small car with as few parts and in the shortest time possible. Just look at those pictures of the chassis stampings, so delicately designed for minimum weight and quick production.


We may not forget, Zundapp an NSU already produced some cars and lorries, before and after 1931-34. They did not start from scratch along 1931 to 1934. Both were no beginners. Imo, there are many lies around.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z%C3%BCndapp
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSU_Motorenwerke

Not sure for now, wether the mystery car is made and payed for, from Zundapp, NSU, F.P.
All parts and scetches can be mixed up at Stuttgart after late 1934. (individual private theory only)
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2024 3:27 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

Although there are some outward similarities between the NSU typ 32 and the first Volkswagens, the fastback body, the flat four and some flutings in the sheet steel, the volkswagen project was started more or less from scratch. It would be considerably more compact and efficiently packed, the engine would be less than 1 litre and so on. The NSU was more of a medium class car that would have sold for 2-3000 RM at least. But starting a car company from scratch requires incredibly large investment, both in prototyping and manufacturing facilities, the project never got close to production.

Much of the engineering of the Volkswagen went into production methods and tools, how to produce the most advanced small car with as few parts and in the shortest time possible. Just look at those pictures of the chassis stampings, so delicately designed for minimum weight and quick production.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 03, 2024 3:15 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

finster wrote:
that's intriguing - looking forward to the disclosure Cool


We have to see, the idea of german "Volkswagen" started around early 20th years, but became a highly important government topic after 30.01.1933.

After Zundapp, NSU and many others had created examples of a little and cheap car, the government took over that ideas and compete theme.
Further on, there was only one official "VOLKSWAGEN" allowed in germany, and F.P. is active for the government only. (concerning any volkswagen project). This decission was made along 1934.
Maybe for F.P. the Zundapp project was official finished in peace, the NSU was still not, but the government also wanted F.P. to create the official volkswagen, but alone.

Concrete, we have the exposè from 17.01.1934 and the contract from 22.06.1934 between F.P. and the RDA. So F.P. had to bring a drivable prototype till April 1935.
A NSU based car was out of discussion, a VW 3 far away from ready, but if the Zundapp project was really finished, the left over vert, now clear and correctly in F.P. ownership, from Drauz along 1934 converted to a good looking limousine, based on the up to now not realized car in weinsberg look, could be planed to be used as first official volkswagen prototype. But at least the front looked too much Zundapp and further on we have heard, the chief liked the Tatra design, combined with an air cooled engine, some sort of flat four "german Tatra". (only my private theory)
On government reasons, NSU had to pull the plug, creating a "volkswagen".
That can be the reason, why there are so few pics and information about Zundapp and NSU cars.


Last edited by wagen19 on Tue Dec 03, 2024 3:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2024 3:10 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

finster wrote:
allsidius wrote:
The Dirty Car was completely different from both the Drauz and the Reutter... it has partially sunken headlights like a Tatra 77 first version.


maybe any photos were destroyed when ringhoffer/ledwinka claimed plagiarism of tatra designs...?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Tatra never claimed this wrt. the NSU typ 32 project. That was just a bogus claim when VW turned out success. And the headlights were never an issue.

The Tatra that has similar headlights to the Dirty car is this, the early T77.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
. It was actually built AFTER the Dirty car, so I guess Porsche should get their finger out and sue them now.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 02, 2024 2:42 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

allsidius wrote:
The Dirty Car was completely different from both the Drauz and the Reutter... it has partially sunken headlights like a Tatra 77 first version.


maybe any photos were destroyed when ringhoffer/ledwinka claimed plagiarism of tatra designs...?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 3:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

IIIA-0426 wrote:
The photo on page 4 is the only frontal shot we have of the “dirty car”.


Yes I know and it bugs me that there isn't a better one available. The Dirty Car was completely different from both the Drauz (assuming the car that just showed up was really built at Drauz) and the Reutter (the one in existence in the VW museum today) looks much sleeker and well designed, it has partially sunken headlights like a Tatra 77 first version. Not buckets like both the others had. And the side profile is lower and more aerodynamic.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 8:57 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

The photo on page 4 is the only frontal shot we have of the “dirty car”.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 5:01 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

What a find! Thanks for sharing. It is pretty obvious that this is the car that was photographed outside Drauz , with the company logo clearly visible. Whether this car was made by Drauz or one of the others is still up for debate, but it is quite possible.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Finally we have a frontal picture. So amazing. Now if we can only find a full frontal of the Dirty car, we should all be happy..
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 3:18 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

always a treat to see new photos of early prototypes. If he drove it until the war, I wonder what became of it...
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 2:56 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

IIIA-0426 wrote:
The photos are dated 29 September, 1935 on the back side, with captions of the towns “Wüstenrot” and “Löwensteinerberge”, which are just a few kilometers east of Heilbronn.

Remarkable!


Nice to see that thread coming up again.

Literature, facts:
Zundapp: 3 prototypes
NSU: also 3 prototypes

Info:
Samba: 4 NSU prototypes, or at least one mystery car is around.
Still missing: evidence of the existence of the Weinsberg NSU.

Confusing: pics of a believed 4 th NSU prototype.

Maybe this theory was discussed before, if so, sorry.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=2188719
Porsche started with 3 prototypes for Zundapp. We have pics of one not rolling, unfinished vert. (link above). Imo, the vert looked very old fashioned that time.
As far as I know, Zundapp (Zündapp) and NSU stopped their projects to built cars in the early 30 years. (with Porsche)
The Porsche factory had the rights to keep at least one prototype of these Zundapp and NSU cars.
My theory is, nobody really liked the vert that time and when Zundapp pulled the plug, at least the vert body was left over and ended up at Porsche, Stuttgart.
I suggest the theory, the pic of our "proper NSU" in front of the Drauz factory is a Drauz transformed body, based on the Reutter bodied Zundapp vert. Look at the front and the door line and position of hinges. The tecnic. wheels and brakes look NSU.

At the end of the day, if our "proper NSU" is really a "NSU", not something else, there were 4 NSU´s around. (not going along with NSU info!)
The actual pics of "the proper one" are from Sept 1935. That time NSU already had pulled the plug.
So it can also be, in theory, our "proper one" is a "Porsche factory owned and designed, Drauz built prototype" body, for or a Porsche engine test vehicle, based on left over Zundapp and NSU parts.

Suggest:
1.) Drauz, IIIE 9759, (still existing) (can also be Reutter)
2.) Reutter (or Drauz), IIIE (?) 0503 (0603?), (test plate?), (the dirty one)
3.) Weinsberg, (only drawing known, but no pics, so far unprooved existence)
4.) Our "proper one", IIIE 050x, (body Reutter - Drauz), (the same test plate as on dirty one?)


Last edited by wagen19 on Sun Dec 01, 2024 5:47 am; edited 8 times in total
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 1:44 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

The photos are dated 29 September, 1935 on the back side, with captions of the towns “Wüstenrot” and “Löwensteinerberge”, which are just a few kilometers east of Heilbronn.

Remarkable!
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 1:35 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

WOW! These photos show an amazing insight. I am not an expert on coachbuilding but it does look like that car has a leather roof. Maybe its a mixed construction with a wood shell covered with leather, metal skins and metal fenders, like a lot of car back in those days. Maybe this can help determine the coachbuilder?

I am glad that this topic is still active because there still is so much to discover about the type 32.
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 01, 2024 1:23 am    Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I don’t know how I missed this back in 2021, as I followed the auction house in question closely at the time. They were sold in the Christmas auction of that year. Anyway, I discovered these today and I thought I would share. This remarkable set of photos is captioned:

“1935, mixed lot of 4 original B/W photos with different views of the Volkswagen type 32 prototype with Weinsberg car body, the photos shows the Viennese engineer Oswald Rudolf Fritz with the prototype, who drove this car until the war every day from his residence Löwenstein to the NSU in Neckarsulm, with a proof of ancestry with entries Oswald Rudolf Fritz, unpublished photos, extremely interesting”

Again - still debatable regarding the coachbuilder, but great to see a front view!
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