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usariemen
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 Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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| allsidius wrote: |
| usariemen wrote: |
| allsidius wrote: |
What book is this?
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German publications from 1951 and 1960.
And one new from 2011.
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Wow I forgot about that. If it is from 1951, I guess the pics we talk about are not in the Porsche book, since it reportedly was taken over by VW later than 1951?
Was it photographed from Der Spiegel? |
The 1951 Porsche book is a biography and ends with his death.
Obviously released shortly after his death.
There in are these.
The 1961 Spiegel is a special edition booklet with the story of the Volkswagen.
There in are These.
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usariemen
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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The text says that NSU had only stopped the car project due to contracts they had with Fiat wich only allowed them to produce motorcycles.
An that there was running until "some years ago" a NSU prototype in the Schwaben area of Germany wich had run over 300 000 Kilometers.
Lived Schröder in Schwaben?
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IIIA-0426
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:33 pm Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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Here you can see the bodged repair work to fair in the new headlights. Note it really was rough work, by no means part of a restoration.
Here a detailed shot of the original mounting. I thought you may appreciate this.
The car had a damaged rear clip as found.
This was also very roughly faired back in. Note the cooling slots.
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IIIA-0426
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:37 pm Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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| finster wrote: |
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I am sorry but this is incorrect. The photo that you claim is airbrushed is actually one of several perfectly normal photos.
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I'm a trained (ex) technical illustrator and that photo is heavily retouched, however I think the bumper is similar to the one fitted at the time of the large headlamps - see top of this page. |
https://www.automobilia-ladenburg.de/aAPI/catalogs...&pid=1
See lot 1702.
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usariemen
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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IIIA-0426
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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Here a close-up of the other side.
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splitjunkie
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| Posted: Sun Feb 02, 2020 5:30 pm Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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| finster wrote: |
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I am sorry but this is incorrect. The photo that you claim is airbrushed is actually one of several perfectly normal photos.
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I'm a trained (ex) technical illustrator and that photo is heavily retouched, however I think the bumper is similar to the one fitted at the time of the large headlamps - see top of this page. |
Oh Yeah, heavily retouched.
I have always assumed that that bumper is a banana bumper that was crudely hammer flat to fit the front of the car.
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finster
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| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:18 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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IIIA those are photos which include ones of the retouched photo artwork. Notice in the front view line-up how the background has been 'faded' to make the cars stand out and the beetles bumper defined.
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allsidius
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| Posted: Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:39 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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| IIIA-0426 wrote: |
Here a close-up of the other side. |
I think this pic reveals quite a bit of the history. First of all, this is probably a detail from the posing picture with mr Schröder, probably in the latter part of the 50s.
It seems to me to suggest that there has been another set of flush headlights, mounted higher on the fender. The repair around the current lights is slightly lower than what it replaced. This light housing has a substantial flange around the bucket.
If we compare to the airbrushed pic, which proved to be touched up over an existing picture taken at Reutters in 1951, it seems that those are the first set of flush lights fitted, probably just before this session, since the car looks freshed up. But that is speculation.
The "first generation" lights does not have the same flange either.
This means that Porsche had contact with mr Schröder in 1951. The pics are taken at Reutters, which was the body supplier of Porsche, placed in Stuttgart right across the street from Porsche Werks. Porsche was of course intimately in contact with VW all the time, but VW seems to be out of the picture at this time (1951) regarding this prototype.
I revise my standing that VW did the first modification work, it now seems likely that the modification was done prior to the 1951 Reutter line-up, and that it was redone a bit better (but not much) when it was eventually bought by VW a few years later. Maybe the answer is that Porsche wanted to show the genius of their newly deceased Prof. Ferdinand I, and assisted Herr Schröder in updating the car for everyday use? Or maybe those first thin-rimmed flus lights were just screwed into the fender by herr Schröder himself, without a bucket and a flange?
I am not sure when VW traded in the car, but 1953 has been mentioned. If so, the car was in use with the small lights for at least 2 years. We still do not know when the first generation flush lights were fitted, but it seems clear that it indeed was before it was taken over by VW.
I don't buy the safety reason for removing the pod lights, Mercedes Benz sold their 170V with pod lights all the way up to 1955, and Ford Pop even longer (1959). I also have problems with the claim that the car had done 300.000 km when it was purchased by Porsche. To keep a prototype running that long, considering no spare parts existed, sounds incredible!
Now all we need is a pic with mr Schröder with his car, prior to any contact with Porsche in 1951!
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Capriheld
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| Posted: Tue Feb 04, 2020 1:19 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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Here are two photos of the Chassis from the Porsche Typ 12. Seems to be the Chassis from the Car in front of the Porsche Villa. Same Wheels etc.
bye Mathias |
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Lennert.vw
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| Posted: Mon Mar 15, 2021 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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So we can conclude that the grey car that still exist today is the one made Reutter. But the other 2 are a bit of a puzzle because in 2 of Keith Seume's books he mentions that there were only 2 manufacturers of the typ 32 prototypes body's, namely Reutter and Drauz. And Chris Barber does not dive deep into the type 12 and 32 ( I could be wrong though).
It could be possible that the one without the air vent and with the semaphores is the one by Drauz because the sign with 'Drauz' in the background, but in Keith Seume's book called "the beetle a comprehensive ...." he states that the 'dirty' car, which was later seen again at the porsche workshop is made by Drauz and pattented by Weymann. if that is correct than it means that the two other cars, which look more similair to each other, are both built by Reutter.
Anyhow, nobody has posted on this thread for about a years now so i don't expect much ( if any) response, i only sumbled upon this topic because I am writing a book about the beetle, for myslelf because of copyright reasons and stuff , but thanks anyway. |
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allsidius
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:35 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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| Lennert.vw wrote: |
So we can conclude that the grey car that still exist today is the one made Reutter. But the other 2 are a bit of a puzzle because in 2 of Keith Seume's books he mentions that there were only 2 manufacturers of the typ 32 prototypes body's, namely Reutter and Drauz. And Chris Barber does not dive deep into the type 12 and 32 ( I could be wrong though).
It could be possible that the one without the air vent and with the semaphores is the one by Drauz because the sign with 'Drauz' in the background, but in Keith Seume's book called "the beetle a comprehensive ...." he states that the 'dirty' car, which was later seen again at the porsche workshop is made by Drauz and pattented by Weymann. if that is correct than it means that the two other cars, which look more similair to each other, are both built by Reutter.
Anyhow, nobody has posted on this thread for about a years now so i don't expect much ( if any) response, i only sumbled upon this topic because I am writing a book about the beetle, for myslelf because of copyright reasons and stuff , but thanks anyway. |
I for one is still following the thread, one of the big mysteries of VW genesis.
The Existing car is most certainly Reutter, it was taken back to the Reutter company in the 50s, and subject to a reunion with the workers that originally built it.
The enigmatic Semaphore car, while the pictures are excellent, the documentation is not. It is definitely photographed outside Drauz works, and the chances it was not built by them are pretty slim since there is little reason that Porsche would do a photo shoot outside the company that didn't build the car. But as they say, the evidence is circumstantial.
The origins of the Dirty car remains disputed. It is such a different design, much smoother and Porsche like than the other two. The headlights are very similar to the early Tatra 77, (although I am not a subscriber to the "Porsche copied Tatra" myth. The Tatra came on the market in 1934, the prototype was built in 1934. I think these were common design ideas, not copycat). The Dirty car was photographed outside the Porsche Büro in Stuttgart, just across the road from Reutter, but one must assume that these cars were driven around in the area and that it not necessarily has been made at Reutter just because it was photographed nearby. It has certainly been driven hard before photographed.
If Reutter built the mixed construction Dirty car, why was it so different from the other all-metal car they built? Even if the chassis are similar, the whole design is so much more sporty and elegant. The mixed construction points to an older design, but the design elements does not.
I would like to add that a lot of speculations earlier in this post was corrected over the course of discussion, so do not take early statements for "proof" now.
Dirty car:
Tatra 77
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Lennert.vw
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 2:17 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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I just re-read this thread and i agree that the one that still exists is the Reutter one and that the "mystery car" car was made by Drauz. Which makes the dirty car a bit of a mystery.
Here are the theories of which I believe that make sense.
#1 The car photographed outside Drauz was made by Drauz but the design was drawn by weinsberg, and the dirty car a was a 2nd car made by Drauz.
#2 This theory is almost the same as #1 but the dirty car was made by Reutter and neither Drauz of Weinsberg.
I don't think that Weinsberg made a car, they rather made the design.
The history of this era in the VW history is not well documented. In one of Keith Seume's books, writtin in 1997 he states that there where 3 prototypes, one made by Reutter and two by Drauz. 2 yeras later in another book he states two where made by Reutter and one by Drauz, howerer a few pager futher he states 2 where mady by Drauz and 1 by Reutter. It's almost like every single book states a diffrent theory. But I think that its it safe to assume that 2 where made by Drauz and one by Reutter.
And that makes theory #1 the most plausible. But if anyone has a better one, I would be gled to hear it. |
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allsidius
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:16 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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Sounds plausible. I do not think Weinsberg made a car, but the drawings may have been an inspiration for the mystery car.
I find the dirty car and the existing car so different that it is hard to believe Reutter could have built both. The dirty car is a well designed stylish vehicle, but primitive in its mixed construction and far from production ready. The existing car looks much more utilitarian and closer to production ready, function has dictated form, and it is a rather ugly vehicle. (even uglier today with its silly faired in headlights, added very late in it's functional life. Make it bug-eyed again!)
Maybe it was a parallel project, the existing car was built to explore the Volkswagen basic transportation side of it, while the dirty car was lower and sleeker to appeal to a more upmarket segment.
We have been promised further details by some contributors in this thread, but so far I haven't seen any.
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Lennert.vw
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| Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2021 5:24 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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It's very possible that it could have been a parallel project beceause in 1933 Porsche had already met with Adolf Hitler in the Kaisershof in Berlin to discuss about a volkswagen for the german people. So it would be strange to continue with the NSU project because Hitler was very ambitous and serious about a volkswagen. Maybe Porsche wanted to play safe and continue with the NSU typ 32 in case Hitler would change his mind, also Porsche wasn't very fond of Hitler.
We probably will never know for sure, unless a promenent person or talented writer dives deep into the archives and figures it all out. But that probably won't happen any time soon. VW doesn't have a good record of caring about its very early history, Look at the licence plate of VW38/03 for example which has the one from the V303 ragtop, what a disgrace. And also the only existing NSU Typ 32 in its modified from. And what about VW38/31, aka Hitlers personal VW which is probably the best preserved VW38 or any other prototype for that matter, it was supposedly being restored, but I haven't seen that car in a few years. Hopefully anyone can inform me about the state of that car.
Engough ranting about VW's treatment of it's prototypes. Anyway, it seems that we have found a somewhat plausible theory for now. Lets hope one day it will be solved. |
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allsidius
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| Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2021 4:39 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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The famous Expose of Porsche was dated january 1934. Before that there was no Hitler connection to his efforts to design a car from skratch. The typ 32 was a larger and more expensive car, no matter which body it had. So I do not think that the three totally different prototypes has anything to do with the Porsche typ 60 project, other than the use of his general engineering preferences.
In any case, a serious inquiry into the Porsche archives on this matter would be most welcome!
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cyberdyne systems 101
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 12:45 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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Fascinating read guys. Really good to see pictures I'd not come across before this thread. I also agree the Type 32 should have its headlights (AND bumper) restored.
Did you notice on the 'dirty' car there were different door handles between pictures?
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oldovaldriver
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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| But notice both valve stems are in the exact same position! Although the sun has moved (about 15 minutes later?) and the car is now in the light. Removable door handle??? |
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cyberdyne systems 101
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| Posted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 11:02 pm Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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| oldovaldriver wrote: |
| But notice both valve stems are in the exact same position! Although the sun has moved (about 15 minutes later?) and the car is now in the light. Removable door handle??? |
Good spot! Maybe one of those guys was a bit over enthusiastic with the handle and broke it off?
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GArBa
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| Posted: Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:02 am Post subject: Re: Which one is the proper NSU type 32? |
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Notice the shadow of the handle on the second picture. It is still there, only we can see less of it because of the different pic angle and the lower pic definition.
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