Which one is the proper NSU type 32?

[GArBa]

love that prototype. This part of the story is actually rather fascinating because of its later implications: DKW developed the F9 to be the most refined of the economical cars as a response to the VW, and that same F9 ended up both setting the technical path for pretty much the whole auto industry of the GDR and at the same time for the solution of the '70s VW "bad times" through the Audi-sourced passat.
_________________
cars:
'97 type 1 1600i
'14 type AA Seat Mii (sadly dead after 270.000 km)
'22 type C1 T-Cross
'23 type AC3 Hyundai I10 (VW no longer makes small cars!)
-------------------------
moped:
'82 Benelli Magnum 3v

[KTPhil]

[paulymx]

It's ironic isn't it that the DKW solution (front engine, front wheel drive) would come to replace the Porsche solution (rear engine, rear wheel drive) at Volkswagen, THE company that effectively made the rear engined car a success. It almost didn't happen though. When VW purchased Auto-Union Gmbh in 1965 the intention was to shut down all DKW production and turn the entire Ingolstadt plant over to VW Beetle production (as VW couldn't keep up with demand). They were quick to kill of the DKW two-stroke line as a minor competitor but inherited the resurrected Audi project, which was virtually ready for production. The first 'modern' Audi was a slightly restyled DKW F102 with a four cylinder, Mercedes-Benz four stroke engine and rebadged as Audi.

As it was a larger model car that didn't compete with the Beetle, VW management let the project go ahead. It sold fairly well but wasn't a particularly great car. Shortly thereafter VW began dismissing Auto Union management and replacing them with VW managers whose brief it was was to cut, cut, cut. Research and development was slashed and it seemed that Auto Union's days were numbered. Even so, VW was experiencing something of a crisis as Nordhoff's policy of small improvements to the Beetle had stifled all design creativity at VW. They had lost the ability to design from scratch. This in part explains VW's next purchase - NSU, which was going way, way out with their Wankel engine experiments. NSU was merged with Auto-Union.

In 1968, the Auto-Union design team undertook an all or nothing gamble. The project had to be kept secret from VW executives who would have put a stop to it. The car in question was the Audi 100 S coupe. Nordhoff eventually became aware of the project and demanded to see what the Audi team had done. The head of design told his team that either way they'll be drinking at the pub that night - celebrating their success or commiserating their unemployment. Nordhoff came down to Ingolstadt, looked over the prototype and begrudgingly nodded, "it's a handsome car." The project got the go ahead and the Audi design team saved their jobs. Plans to shut down the Audi line were shelved and the rest as they say, is history.
_________________
1952 Tatraplan
1953 DKW F89L
1957 DKW Hummel
1958 Ariel Leader
1959 DKW F94
1960 IWL Troll
1962 Volkswagen Karman Ghia

[allsidius]

The VW - Auto Union - NSU connection is fascinating, the resurrection of Audi from the foundering DKW badge is amazing. In the 30s DKW was the only make in the Auto union making any real money, Wanderer and Audi seemed to be constantly experimenting while Horch kept on making cars to challenge MB and even Maybach.

Back to the 30s, from the "Käfer-Chronik" by Bernd Wiersch (2005) I have taken the liberty of scanning a couple of paragraphs on the NSU prototypes. Wiersch was the curator of the VW museum so one must assume he has had access to an astounding amount of information on the gestaltion of the beetle.

First, it is stated clearly that there were three different prototypes built.

I'll try my best in translating:
Three prototypes were built, with the same technic (ie. chassis?) but with different bodies by Drauz, Reutter and Weinsberg, each of steel and wood composite construction, as was common practice in Germany at the time.

Then he describes the still existing prototype as a Drauz

The single still excisting prototype, which was made by the company Drauz of Heilbronn, was designed by Willy Schneider and made in the composite construction, with all steel panels on the ouside, including roll-away sunroof. It had the doors hinged in the back, the headlights were built into the front fenders, which were rounded to the rear, the air vents were placed next to the rear side windows.
The car then stayed with NSU until the end of the war, after which it was aquired by a worker at NSU. In 1956 he made an offer to the historic collection, to trade the car for a new beetle. That was a good deal for both parties.

What puzzles me here is that he states that the car had the headlights integrated, this is clearly not the case, this redesign was done by the NSU worker to make the car more practical after the war. (using cheaper standard headlight units)

Next he describes the Weinsberg car, with important clues, the doors were forward hinged.

The body from Karosseriewerke Weinsberg was also made in the composite steel wood construction with complete steel covering. The doors, however, were hinged at the front, from safety reasons supposedly, no descriptions of this construction principle exists. The headlights were fitted to the front fenders, the air inlets were on the engine lid. The design was by Otto Schmidt at Weinsberg.

Finally the Reutter Car is described, the dark and dirty of which only one photo seems to exist.

The third Variation of the car was made by Reutter in Stuttgart, it too had the composite steel/wood design but it was covered in plywood and had leatherette covering on the outside. In this model the doors again were hinged at the back, the headlights were built into the front fenders, and the air inlets, like the Weinsberg car, were in the longer rear engine lid.

Finally there is this collage of all three cars

The NSU Porsche typ 32. Of this prototype, which Porsche developed for NSU-Motorenwerke in Neckarsulm, three different models were made. They were developed by Karosseriewerke Drauz in Heilbronn, Weinsberg and Reutter in Stuttgart. The Drauz car still exists. The photos show the prototypes in succession; Weinsberg, Reutter, Drauz. There are no known pictures of the Weinsberg Car anymore.

Then what in heck is this car?

It fits most of the description of the Weinsberg car, it is a professional photograph, it is clearly a Porsche design. The mystery remains.
_________________
1973 1303S w sunroof Click to view image
1978 1303 convertible (sold)Click to view image
1966 1300 RIPClick to view image

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[GArBa]

since we altready know that car was pictured outside Drauz's facilities and we have pictures of the steel-bodied car with separate headlights atop of the fenders, I'd question at least some parts of Wiersch's reconstruction.

also, I think this is the only source that identify the all-steel car as not being Reutter's.
_________________
cars:
'97 type 1 1600i
'14 type AA Seat Mii (sadly dead after 270.000 km)
'22 type C1 T-Cross
'23 type AC3 Hyundai I10 (VW no longer makes small cars!)
-------------------------
moped:
'82 Benelli Magnum 3v

[allsidius]

[GArBa]

Well, the Weinsnberg sketch is in most aspects similar to the pictured car (I'll call that "Drauz #2), but there are (minor) differences, too.

Your theory is plausible, but I think what we know allows also for different speculations, of course not supported by facts, at least as of my (limited) knowledge; a couple of them:

a) as you postulate, there could be "Drauz#1" and "Drauz#2" (the wood-leather car and the one pictured outside of the factory), the well-known "Reutter" car and a fourth, (at this point not available in photography) "Weinsnberg" car.

b) alternatively, what I'm calling "Drauz#2" could actually be "Weinsnberg"with modifications added later by Drauz.

I'm sure there is some member here with a far deeper knowledge that could put some order in this interesting matter.

PS - One just cannot not love the DKW F9.
_________________
cars:
'97 type 1 1600i
'14 type AA Seat Mii (sadly dead after 270.000 km)
'22 type C1 T-Cross
'23 type AC3 Hyundai I10 (VW no longer makes small cars!)
-------------------------
moped:
'82 Benelli Magnum 3v

[allsidius]

I have never read anything other than that there were three cars made, and that they were all made by different karosseriewerke. So a fourth car I think is highly unlikely.

Let's hope you are right, that someone comes up with a plausible explanation. And hopefully some frontal pictures of both the Drauz car and "my" Weinsberger. A newer drawing of the Weinsberg with the Komenda quarter elliptic rear side window would also be nice.

And the F9 is ultra cute, that's for sure.
_________________
1973 1303S w sunroof Click to view image
1978 1303 convertible (sold)Click to view image
1966 1300 RIPClick to view image

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[paulymx]

Given that the cars were prototypes and built by separate karosseriewerkes, it's no surprise that they did not match the design sketches.

Ferry Porsche also mentioned in his autobiography that many of the prototypes were modified, reworked and improved over the years. Even if the Porsche's left the cars with NSU, NSU would (and did) sell them on and their owners did lots of 'things' to them - like the awful headlights on the surviving car.
_________________
1952 Tatraplan
1953 DKW F89L
1957 DKW Hummel
1958 Ariel Leader
1959 DKW F94
1960 IWL Troll
1962 Volkswagen Karman Ghia

[IIIA-0426]

Apologies about the quality. This is a photo of a photo I have in my archive. It shows the front of what is referred to as the Reutter bodied type 32, parked outside the Porsche Büro in the same position as the photo from the rear was taken.

Other than an early sketch (which may have just been a design study), there is no core evidence to my knowledge that Weinsberg actually built a bodywork.

I am currently working on a new lead I have developed over the years, specifically on the Type 32, and may have some additional information about these prototypes in the coming months.

[allsidius]

Wow! That is amazing! What a cool styling exercise. This is 1934, how many other makes had that kind of headlight treatment!

I am dying to see the rest of your documentation, especially of the car I think is the Weinsberg and you think is the Drauz.
_________________
1973 1303S w sunroof Click to view image
1978 1303 convertible (sold)Click to view image
1966 1300 RIPClick to view image

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[GArBa]

after the war someone was thinking along those lines, too...

fiat 600 prototype. Much more beetle-inspired than the actual production car, this also had an air-cooled v twin (IIRC of 150°) with an interesting combustion chamber design. It didn't work out in the end.
_________________
cars:
'97 type 1 1600i
'14 type AA Seat Mii (sadly dead after 270.000 km)
'22 type C1 T-Cross
'23 type AC3 Hyundai I10 (VW no longer makes small cars!)
-------------------------
moped:
'82 Benelli Magnum 3v

[allsidius]

I just found this amazing picture of the Mercedes Benz prototype (courtesy Automuseum Prototyp in Hamburg) 120 H of about 1935. The 120 never came to production, they opted for the much more stodgy 130H and later 170H. At the same time, Daimler Benz model makers and prototype artists were helping Ferdinand Porsche build his W30 series.

The H series never caught on, MB was much too traditionalist to replace their cast-iron, watercooled, inline, flathead four with anything remotely similar to Franz Xaver Reimspiess ingenious aircooled, alloy block, boxer layout, overhead valve four. All those four characteristics are essential to the Beetle's success. Having a 300 pound piece of steel hanging almost a metre out behind the rear axle, vs. 150 pounds half the way, makes a world of difference in handling.

But this prototype is about the most fascinating sports coupe I have seen in a while. Just look at those headlights!

Sporty profile

Here's the 170 chassis, for comparison..

There has been some discussion whether Porsche stole the ideas of Ledwinka and Tatra. I think this thread shows pretty well that there was a race to design the car of the future, and there were plenty contestants!
_________________
1973 1303S w sunroof Click to view image
1978 1303 convertible (sold)Click to view image
1966 1300 RIPClick to view image

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[Jack O'Neill]

Oh my, I DID had a frontal picture of the dirty type 32 after all!
Well, in the interest of not letting that happen again, here is a picture of the Typ 12:

Since I cannot build full size replicas of those cars, I'll someday build scale models of them all. I already have the W30 covered =)

[paulymx]

The similarity between all the rear engined car designs of the 1930s leads lots of people to assume a common 'ancestry' and that someone must have copied someone else's work (aka the Josef Ganz book and the VW vs Tatra claims), but the truth lies in the engineering principle of form and function.

Once car companies began the race to develop 'the people's car' the engineering imperative was simplicity and low cost. If you have an engine at the front of the car driving the rear wheels you need a transmission and differential. This is heavy, expensive and power is lost as the energy is transmitted down the transmission shaft and through the differential. It's an inefficient solution. There are only two alternatives for the engineer - front engine, front wheel drive or rear engine, rear wheel drive. DKW, Germany's preeminent budget auto company of the 1930s, solved the problem by developing a front engined, front wheel drive car in 1932. The F1 was a sensation and sold extremely well.

However, front wheel drive involves an inherent technical complexity in that the front wheels are not only driven, but must also be able to turn when the car steers. This necessitated some complex engineering and loss of efficiency (energy loss).

It was therefore obvious to the engineering community that the simplest solution was rear engine, rear wheel drive. If we exclude the numerous cyclecars that were built during this period, Hanomag really started the ball rolling with their PS2 'kommisbrot', which was powered by a 400cc single cylinder engine with chain drive to the rear wheels in 1928 (I think). This was followed by a dozen imitators and improver, including the Standard Superior, Bungartz, Hansa 400 from Carl Borgward, and even DKW with their stillborn rear engined prototype. All these cars featured a rear mounted air cooled engine of approximately 400cc with chain drive - for a very good reason - they were budget cars and needed to be cheap, and because 400cc was about the capacity limit that you could effectively cool an engine with ambient air flow. Effectively this was the best that Ganz and his competitors could do within the limitations of the small car price limit of 1000 to 1500RM.

The next tier engineering community - and by this I mean Porsche, Ledwinka and the Nibel of Mercedes-Benz amongst others - saw the same benefits and opportunity as Ganz and the budget engineers and began working on their projects. The jump from a plywood bodied microcar to a 'proper' car was substantial though and introduced a raft of technical challengers that Ganz and others did not face. For instance, a steel car is obviously heavier than a plywood car so it needs a bigger engine. 400ccs is simply not enough, but any engine over 400ccs cannot be air cooled alone as it would overheat in the engine bay, regardless how many air vents are cut in the sides and decklid.

Mercedes-Benz trialed the concept in 1932 with their air cooled boxer-engined 120H and it looked promising, except the engine suffered from mechanical issues (it was an early design) and overheating. This led them to change the engine in the production 130H to a reliable water-cooled inline 4 cylinder in 1934. The engine change addressed the cooling problem (to a degree), but changed the handling characteristics of the car to such a degree that the suspension required a complete redesign. The end result was a less than satisfactory car that got better over time, but was so expensive to develop that it could never be a 'people's car.'

Ledwinka at Tatra and Porsche in his various projects for Zundapp and NSU were both independently coming to the same technical solution to the problem - rear mounted engine with forced air cooling. Tatra and Porsche went in different directions because they had different markets in mind and one could comfortably say that the Tatra T77, with its air cooled V8 monster of an engine out the back and the Volkswagen, with its boxer 4 engine, are not remotely similar except that they have rear mounted engines. The issue of the Tatra and Volkswagen lawsuit comes down to a single technical feature and politics. Tatra had been using forced air cooling on its cars since the 1920s (from the T12 onwards). When they began experimenting with a rear engined prototype from 1932 onwards (the Tatra V570 project with two cylinder rear mounted boxer engine - same engine as in the T57) they did extensive testing of forced air cooling configurations. At the end of that project they patented all of the experimental configurations. This was partly an attempt to profit from their research, which took them longer than they had envisaged, and also because they adopted air cooling on all their subsequent vehicles in dozens of different engine types, including their massive W24 air cooled diesel truck engines.

I believe Porsche's air cooled engine configuration was developed independently. He did not NEED to copy Ledwinka or anyone else as the engineering principle of the rear mounted, air cooled engine could only lead him to that solution. It's small consolation though that Ledwinka and Tatra got in first and patented their research. The fan forced air cooling mechanism in the VW is the sole issue of dispute - and only on the basis of timing. Other claims, such as the chassis design, independent suspension, tunnel, gearbox, that are claimed to have been copied from either Ganz or Ledwinka are bunk. Most of the design features the Ganz book claims are Ganz' are actually Ledwinka's when you read the book!
_________________
1952 Tatraplan
1953 DKW F89L
1957 DKW Hummel
1958 Ariel Leader
1959 DKW F94
1960 IWL Troll
1962 Volkswagen Karman Ghia

[allsidius]

Paulymx, a lot of food for thought here. The 400 cc tecnical limit for an aircooled engine (without forced air flow) was new to me but it seems logical. The surface area of an object in proportion to the volume increases as the object becomes smaller. So a very large cylinder head would be impossible to cool, even with an extreme amount of cold air available. That is why the big bombers of WWII had an exceptional amount of pistons, like the B-36 which had six Wasp majors of 28 cylinders each displacing 2.5 litres, that's 168 pistons altoghether.
The rear engined DKW race car of 1933 is very interesting too:

The DKW is very similar to the 130H, there were several versions of that as well. I flipped the picture to show the similarities.

The 130H was preceded by the 120H prototype, which supposedly had a 1.2 l boxer 4.

Of notable interest is the complete lack of fluting in the hood and body. Just a couple of years later, the prototype 130 had fluting all over it, as a means to allow thinner metal sheet while maintaining the rigidity. (Courtesy Automuseum Prototyp, Hamburg)

At this time, there was supposedly no technical input from Porsche Büro and Daimler-Benz, so the fluting must also be a common idea at the time. Or maybe it was an idea that originated at DB, and picked up by Porsche and Komenda? The surviving type 32 has fluting of the hood, and that design was done in 33/34.

Did you say you have a better frontal pic of the dirty dark type 32? Would love to see it!
_________________
1973 1303S w sunroof Click to view image
1978 1303 convertible (sold)Click to view image
1966 1300 RIPClick to view image

Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!

[paulymx]

I don't have a photo of the dark 32.

Great set though of the MB120H series. Of special note is the proliferation of vents added to the side of the later prototype body (the last photo in the sequence). The earlier prototype photo is above that and has slab sides with no venting. Clearly, as they developed the car they found the air cooling of the engine was more difficult to control than they thought.
_________________
1952 Tatraplan
1953 DKW F89L
1957 DKW Hummel
1958 Ariel Leader
1959 DKW F94
1960 IWL Troll
1962 Volkswagen Karman Ghia

[allsidius]

[GArBa]

wind tunnel and real life testing clearly played a role in the placement of the cooling vents. It's interesting that the first prototype does have a sort of kamm tail while the second one a long tail, as it's the opposite of what was years later done on the porsche 917. but then, differently from the 917 these car ran in the 100 km/h range, so any benefit of different tail designs wouldn't probably have been noticed in testing.
_________________
cars:
'97 type 1 1600i
'14 type AA Seat Mii (sadly dead after 270.000 km)
'22 type C1 T-Cross
'23 type AC3 Hyundai I10 (VW no longer makes small cars!)
-------------------------
moped:
'82 Benelli Magnum 3v

[paulymx]

I think the first 120H prototype body was also plywood and metal composite. That car was likely an experimental body to test the concept. It was far better developed in the later metal bodied versions (there were several different body versions before MB settled on the 130H style).
_________________
1952 Tatraplan
1953 DKW F89L
1957 DKW Hummel
1958 Ariel Leader
1959 DKW F94
1960 IWL Troll
1962 Volkswagen Karman Ghia