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To invert or not to invert?
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kamzcab86
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:31 pm    Post subject: Re: To invert or not to invert? Reply with quote

The only genuine inverters I have reside on my little electric pontoon boat, and they're only used for powering holiday lights a few nights a year.

I have had zero use for an inverter in the van...

DC power:
Dometic fridge (while driving)
ARB fridge
Tent fan
LED light fixtures
Faucet water pump
Awning LEDs
Portable camp lights
Air compressor (came with the van; have yet to use it in 7 years)

Solar charging:
Phone
Camera
Tablet & keyboard
iPod and speaker
Aux battery
Other misc. rechargeable battery-powered gizmos

Computer? Stays at home. Power tools? Don't carry any.

If I lived in my van, I'd probably carry an inverter... just in case.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:35 pm    Post subject: Re: To invert or not to invert? Reply with quote

newfisher wrote:
I use one to run a Traeger smoker while we hike. ....... We could easily get along without it, but nice to have in case we need it.


Great! I love that. We certainly hope we bump into you guys sometime on the trail Very Happy
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E1
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 8:46 pm    Post subject: Re: To invert or not to invert? Reply with quote

We bought our van shortly before full-timing in it.

I agree, if it were just a "vacation rig," there's no way I'd even want to touch much media. Never carried it before, always had roads and trails to cover. Tunes maybe, that's it.

Before the bus, all 3,000 days we'd already traveled were with tents. So when I get the "How do you live in that little thang?," we just smile and think it's huge -- probably because it's got everything we need.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 08, 2017 9:52 pm    Post subject: Re: To invert or not to invert? Reply with quote

Alaskaberrys wrote:
newfisher wrote:
I use one to run a Traeger smoker while we hike. ....... We could easily get along without it, but nice to have in case we need it.


Great! I love that. We certainly hope we bump into you guys sometime on the trail Very Happy


Well if you are out in the middle of nowhere Oregon/Washington and smell hickory smoked tri tip or cherry wood smoked chicken, follow the scent to the back of our van Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:45 am    Post subject: Re: To invert or not to invert? Reply with quote

I like the comment about the fancy tent. Us, too but not so fancy I've thought about a big inverter. We use a Cobra 400 or so. We had a Radio Shack model burn out in the middle of the night while we were powering a fan we've used for years. A bit freaky when you smell electrical smoke at 2am and you're at a remote Montana river. Walking home in Grizzly country is something I'd rather read about than experience!

Anyhow, we use ours for various small 120v stuff like laptop charging, a fan for noise/circ at night, and the like. What I do is hook it up to an isolated house battery to protect the starting battery, but also so we can charge phones, flashlights, batteries, bluetooth headsets and the like when we are not in the car. Such as stopped for lunch in a town, I can leave something charging and not worry. With 4 iPhones and 2 laptops minimum on family trips, it can be a constant need, so going for a hike and coming back to something charged is nice.

However, our failure was a reminder to mount something like this that can fail and generate heat in such a way there are no combustibles adjacent.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 4:43 am    Post subject: Re: To invert or not to invert? Reply with quote

The one place my 400 watt inverter shines is to power a crock pot while on the road. I made a special cradle with bungees to hold the crock pot in place and hold the lid on. It is nice to pull into camp and have a soup, stew, or baked potato ready to eat.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:09 am    Post subject: Re: To invert or not to invert? Reply with quote

I was always going to avoid getting an inverter, with 12v laptop charger, ryobi one charger, fan etc, until my wife stated that a hair dryer is needed to go camping. 12v hair dryers don't cut it. So now I'm looking at a 1200w eBay modified sine wave inverter. I'm also planning to use it for a 5l aqueous hot water system http://www.ausj.com.au/water-heaters/Aqueous-5L-12v/product-detail.aspx I was going to get the 12v but just picked the 240v second hand for a bargain. Finally plan to get a small portable electric cooktop to burn excess solar instead of gas to boil the kettle.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:56 am    Post subject: Re: To invert or not to invert? Reply with quote

sam_ wrote:
I was always going to avoid getting an inverter, with 12v laptop charger, ryobi one charger, fan etc, until my wife stated that a hair dryer is needed to go camping. 12v hair dryers don't cut it. So now I'm looking at a 1200w eBay modified sine wave inverter. I'm also planning to use it for a 5l aqueous hot water system http://www.ausj.com.au/water-heaters/Aqueous-5L-12v/product-detail.aspx I was going to get the 12v but just picked the 240v second hand for a bargain. Finally plan to get a small portable electric cooktop to burn excess solar instead of gas to boil the kettle.


This is a joke right?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:13 am    Post subject: Re: To invert or not to invert? Reply with quote

If you need a permanent inverter, you would probably know it. A 1000W unit will not run for long off any battery that fits in the stock location at anywhere near its rated output.

Large inverters are also really inefficient when running at less than 50% load, so they don't make much sense for powering small loads (unless you need to run larger loads periodically).

I would recommend using a smaller inverter (less than 300W) for powering any devices that might need 120VAC. This can be a portable inverter that uses a 12V outlet. If you don't need it, the inverter can stay home.


A quality shore power charger is definitely a good idea. Good quality adjustable inverter/charger combo units are not cheap. Unless you have a specific need for an inverter, I would recommend a dedicated shore power charger (quality unit).
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: To invert or not to invert? Reply with quote

hans j wrote:
There are specific inverters that have the correct sine wave for laptop charging. That's all we use ours for.


I have a Sears Diehard Portable Power 1150 with a 110VAC outlet.
http://www.sears.com/diehard-platinum-portable-pow...ockType=G1

I would like to charge my MacBook Air from this using the Apple charger and cord. Is the sine wave output of the 1150 of any concern?

Aloha
tp
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E1
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:54 am    Post subject: Re: To invert or not to invert? Reply with quote

Overkill, yes, but all my MacBook charging for 41 months has only been done on the GoWesty 1100-watt inverter. If doing it all over again and ordering from them, I may have bought the 800... but as mentioned, we have a second 400W inverter running off the cig lighter I will replace with a good one in the 200-400 range.

I don't recall the sinewave data on the GW, but homework then by the installer and then myself revealed it was safe with my then-brand-new MacBook Pro. Worth double-checking that, though...

I do think it may be safer to use a dedicated, DC laptop charger... but then again, I want surge protection!

The only cords plugged into the inverter are a surge protector for pricy stuff, and a regular shop extension cord to charge minor stuff like batteries!

If I inadvertantly leave the inverter on overnight with nothing plugged in, it only loses .08V total. (the output gauge only reads in .08V increments)

Hope this helps:
https://www.experts-exchange.com/questions/2894731...rging.html Laughing
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Last edited by E1 on Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:27 pm; edited 5 times in total
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:56 am    Post subject: Re: To invert or not to invert? Reply with quote

Tom Powell wrote:
hans j wrote:
There are specific inverters that have the correct sine wave for laptop charging. That's all we use ours for.


I have a Sears Diehard Portable Power 1150 with a 110VAC outlet.
http://www.sears.com/diehard-platinum-portable-pow...ockType=G1

I would like to charge my MacBook Air from this using the Apple charger and cord. Is the sine wave output of the 1150 of any concern?

Aloha
tp


Honestly can't say Sad I have this one: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003R7M4SY/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 And it says it's a modified sine wave and after reading all the comments I decided to try it for our laptop. It's nice to know we have an inverter, but rarely use it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:01 pm    Post subject: Re: To invert or not to invert? Reply with quote

we only carry a small 100~150w inverter for those small items that need the occasional power. keep it in the 'electronics' box. though I've considered hardwiring a 110v outlet powered by an inverter behind the dash for convenience.. but haven't needed that in the 14yrs we've been driving our camper.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:51 pm    Post subject: Re: To invert or not to invert? Reply with quote

E1 wrote:
Hope this helps:
https://www.experts-exchange.com/questions/2894731...rging.html


Thanks, that helps. Heat caused by a square wave might be a problem. It looks the better solution is from a 12V supply, either the Diehard or the cigarette lighter and this charger that is pictured.
https://www.savingology.com/ProductDetails.asp?Pro...Ajio8P8HAQ

However, the description says:
Input: 100-240V 50-60Hz
OUTPUT: 20V ~4.25A 85W
Connector: MagSafe 2
Package includes:
AC adapter
power cord
Please note that this is a quality compatible adapter, picture is just for reference. It may looks different from the physical adapter you received. Sometimes, we even will send you a brand name adapter that is compatible with the one advertised.

Input AC and AC adapter. WTF? Rolling Eyes

Here's the same thing from Amazon with a description:
Input: 11V-16V DC 5.6A (worldwide use)
Output: 20V 4.25A 85Watt
LED indicator shows you when your computer is charging and when it is fully charged
https://www.amazon.com/Monolith-Industry-Charger-A...wer+Supply Smile


Aloha
tp
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: To invert or not to invert? Reply with quote

E1 wrote:

I do think it may be safer to use a dedicated, DC laptop charger... but then again, I want surge protection


How do you need surge protection from a 12V system?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 6:13 pm    Post subject: Re: To invert or not to invert? Reply with quote

@Birdcage hey not joking, I have 170ah battery and 300w solar, and don't stay in one place very long usually. So running a 1200w inverter for 20 minutes every now and then should be ok from my calculations.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 8:42 pm    Post subject: Re: To invert or not to invert? Reply with quote

I use a 400watt inverter a few times a year to charge batteries, etc. it's just what's needed at camp when a friend needs some 120 AC.

I wouldn't rely on it and I wouldn't be without it.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 9:51 pm    Post subject: Re: To invert or not to invert? Reply with quote

dobryan wrote:
E1 wrote:

I do think it may be safer to use a dedicated, DC laptop charger... but then again, I want surge protection


How do you need surge protection from a 12V system?
I often charge the laptop and other gizmos while driving, from the alternator through to the inverter. I'm not an electronics guy (though I know what's worked for us), but if my regulator were to go to 17V as it does when bad, couldn't that surge my inverter? And/or my DC?

Electronic experts will better know the whys, but I presume there's an overcharge cutoff built in the inverter... Plus whatever the protector's got, what I do know is one once saved my gear from a lightning strike atop our home as well (protector fried, equipment was fine). Not being a lightning tech, but being out full-time I like knowing a surge protector *might* make a difference.

Being able to use several available plugs is also nice if you need them.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:24 pm    Post subject: Re: To invert or not to invert? Reply with quote

Tom Powell wrote:


I have a Sears Diehard Portable Power 1150 with a 110VAC outlet.
http://www.sears.com/diehard-platinum-portable-pow...ockType=G1

I would like to charge my MacBook Air from this using the Apple charger and cord. Is the sine wave output of the 1150 of any concern?

Aloha
tp


The internal battery within the SDHPP1150, is an 18Ah AGM battery. Likely this exact one, perhaps with a different sticker, or casing color.

https://www.amazon.com/UBCD5745-Sealed-Lead-Acid-B...ds=ub12180

When they say it can power an 80 watt load for 2.7 hours, that is assuming the battery is still new and healthy, and fully charged.

80 watts divided by 12.4volts is 6.45 amps.
6.45 amps x 2.7 hours = 17.41 AH claimed consumption

But this is deceiving as this would 100% drain the battery, which is very hard on a battery. Also it is likley that the battery will not be able to supply the built in inverter with enough voltage when it is about 30% charged.

Also, the math supplied in this 2.7 hour claim is also fuzzy as it disregards the fact that an 18AH battery under a 6.45 amp load cannot supply 18AH, it would supply abut 13 AmpHours at that load, and that is a generous calculation.

See Peukert effect.

But also unlikely is an 80 watt laptop drawing 80 watts the whole time it is on.

My 90 watt laptop averages about 32watts after its battery is fully charged.

The DC to DC car adapter saves about 10 watts over using an inverter to power the original power brick.

Most power bricks, AC/DC transformers have little issue with MSW inverters.

If you use this jumper pack as a house battery to regualrly charge a laptop, it soon will not have the ability, even if fullly charged, to jumpstart a vehicle, which should be its main function.

Also, the plug in chargers that come with such powerpack/jump starters are very slow and do not really charge the battery within how it would like to be charged.

On the Amazon link above they list a Max charge rate of 5.4 amps and 14.5 to 14.9v. While this is the maximum recommended charge rate and pressure, these batteries, as opposed to grandpa's trickle charge everything always mentality, like higher charge rates and will last longer when those upper limits are approached whrn the battery is well depleted.

The charger which came with your jumpstarter will not even come close to rate and pressure what the battery within would truly like to be recharged at to remain happy and perform well.

The good part is, is that replacing the internal 18 AH AGM battery within is pretty easy for someone with some DIY ability, and not costly.

But using the jump pack as a spare house battery, will kill the battery within pretty quickly if one regularly uses it until the inverter shuts off. Then if one needs to actually use it to jumpstart, it likely will be of no more use than the other paper weight you left at home.

But yes, the MSW inverter in that jumpstarter pack should run your Laptop without issue. But I have read some Macbooks need a PSW inverter. Heresay, I do not really know, only saw other claim this on other forums.

I'd search long and hard for a DC to DC car adpater for any specific laptop. The Ciggy plug could be plugged into the jumpstarter and will save about 10 watts over using the inverter to power the ac to DC power brivk which came with the laptop.

The Ciggy plugs themselves will become problematic if they are asked to pass 60 watts continuously. It will take some time to get wonky at 60 watts, less time at 90 watts, but their failure is a matter of time if that 60 watts is a regular thing,

When it fails:

https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Sea-Systems-Volt-Socke...s+12v+plug
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:40 pm    Post subject: Re: To invert or not to invert? Reply with quote

Edit; didn't see this post^^^^till after I posted. Great info, Thanks nocreditnodebt! I wish I could remember it all.....

wooden nickel wrote:
The one place my 400 watt inverter shines is to power a crock pot while on the road. I made a special cradle with bungees to hold the crock pot in place and hold the lid on. It is nice to pull into camp and have a soup, stew, or baked potato ready to eat.


Hmm, great idea wooden nickel, thanks. I'm liking the uses that include food! I mentioned this post to Diana and she said she's got a little crock pot at home. Might have to try that too Cool

MidwestDrifter wrote:
If you need a permanent inverter, you would probably know it. A 1000W unit will not run for long off any battery that fits in the stock location at anywhere near its rated output.

Large inverters are also really inefficient when running at less than 50% load, so they don't make much sense for powering small loads (unless you need to run larger loads periodically).

I would recommend using a smaller inverter (less than 300W) for powering any devices that might need 120VAC. This can be a portable inverter that uses a 12V outlet. If you don't need it, the inverter can stay home.


A quality shore power charger is definitely a good idea. Good quality adjustable inverter/charger combo units are not cheap. Unless you have a specific need for an inverter, I would recommend a dedicated shore power charger (quality unit).


Good to know. We certainly have not used anything yet close to 1000 watts (I think this does 800 watts per outlet - 1000 total). After reading all these posts I'm seeing an advantage of having one, not much of a nessesity perhaps, but handy. And I like the idea of a smaller, portable or storable one as you mention. Then I can use that real estate behind the seat for a charger/tender which is needed. The ProSport 8 amp dual battery charger is what I've been looking at.
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