type 4 engine - oil pump replace

[Shlomi32]

I'm start to rebuild my engine,1.7 that came out from vw 411 71.
I'm not changing the engine size, and beside of a scat c25 camshaft i m not changing anything.

Is there any suggestion for a oil pump?
I heard that a 26mm type 1 oil pump will fit and even work better, is that correct?

[oprn]

I am also in the process of a type 4 rebuild and the oil pump has had water sitting in it so I am also in the market for a pump. Is this true?

[danielzink]

A type 1 oil pump will fit...

There are some "adjustments" that need to be made to the pump before you bolt it in...

I'm currently running one on mine and also did on a previous type 4 build...


Let me look around and see if I still have info.

Dan
_________________
1965 Notchback 2300cc Type4
Subaru Powered Rail
1915 Rail

www.danielzink.com

[danielzink]

This is from...gosh....maybe Tunacan's site from years ago ? maybe Tom's Type 4 site ?

Not sure....either way...not my pics or words...just the guide I used to modify my pumps for the type 4 case.


Modified T1 oil pump install in a T4 motor

Get a 30 mm, Berg blueprinted, Schadek Type1 oil pump to fit. A 26 mm would be about the same to install. It requires very minimal work or tools. You will also need 4 new 8 mm case studs that are longer ( I used 40 mm) and a VW T1 8 mm flat or stamped steel oil pump cover.

Press the shaft all the way into the gear until it is close to flush. The closer to flush, the less you will need to trim off the drive tang at the other end. A machine shop or friend with a press can do this in about 3 minutes. You may be able to do it with a healthy sized hammer, IF you trust yourself.

Here you can see the modification to the pump body and the drive tang. I had to take about .030" off the pump body that supports the drive shaft. I used a drill press with a sanding disc in it. Check clearance between the pump body and the cam gear bolts or rivets that secure the gear to the cam shaft to ensure you have a minimum of say .010". The drive shaft is next. I ground a slight point to the drive tang so it wouldn't bottom out in the drive slot on the cam. I took about .020" off the overall length, and made the angles fit the cam drive slot.

Now set the pump body in the left case half (the one with da distributor drive, yeah, that left) and make sure that the pump outlet and the case inlet line up real well. You may have to do just a little massaging here to get a nice smooth transition. A mismatch here can cause a flow disruption and possible cavitation (so I've been warned and so have you).


That's basically it. Double check the clearances between everything. You don't need a bunch of end clearance between the cam and the drive tang because the cam shouldn't have more than .004" end play and the pump should be around .004" max .



I used the Berg 30 mm pump because I feel it is the best you can
buy. It has a hard anodize finish, has been o'ringed to seal the
pump body to case, and is made from the same material as the
case giving equal expansion rates. It is also cheaper than what I
was quoted for a T4 oil pump.





There ya go.

Dan
_________________
1965 Notchback 2300cc Type4
Subaru Powered Rail
1915 Rail

www.danielzink.com

[modok]

You will have to check the clearance to the cam gear, and the drive engagement depth, no different than type-1. Should always be checked.

I prefer to use CB's maxi oil pumps, because the shaft is stepped-in. I clearanced the back of a shadek pump last year, only took off .060 of material, and after the pin was LOOSE, actually fell out, and the stud holes needed to be ovaled to obtain correct alignment of the drive to the cam, never again.

Also check the oil pump cover in advance, you may have to trim one corner to get it to fit.

[oprn]

Thanks all! Now I have options.

[Vanapplebomb]

Fwiw, the stock 24mm pump moves plenty of oil. If it's in good shape, take it appart, change the o-ring, and reassemble with a nice heavy assembly lube. Peen over the back side of the fixed gear axle to keep it from backing out as a few have done. Unlikely, but cheap insurance.

One concern I have with aftermarket pumps is the interfearance fit between the pump and housing...or lack there of. Most new pumps are a little small on the OD The T4 oil pumps I have had my hands on measured 70.01mm-70.02mm. I have seen T1 pumps as small as 69.99mm these days, so be careful and measure what you get. If it is 70.00 mm or smaller, return it and try again.

If you run a T1 pump, I certainly wouldn't run anything larger than a 26mm pump on a stock to mild engine. Larger is not necessarily better considering the way the oil cooler bypass plunger functions.
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021

[nextgen]

Vanapplebomb Not So Unlikely, I had it back out of my wifes T-3 Squareback and blew the engine. I was a recent rebuild at the time and was lucky to be able to track it down. My main clue was , my wife said the oil light came on and because she was close to home kept driving it.
_________________
email: [email protected]
The TYPE IV UPRIGHT CONVERSION MANUAL
BEETLE MAGNETIC DEFLECTOR SHIELDS
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[modok]

If the pump is loose, just shim it so it's tight at the suction side. If you think that will mess up the alignment then you need to check alignment and see for yourself.

[Vanapplebomb]

Yup, that definetly has happened Joe...axle backs out and eats the cam gear. That's why I peen the back side of the pump housing a few times around the axle perimeter just in case. Before that I always check to make sure the axle holds tight with a couple whacks to the center with a punch/hammer. If it is easily knocked in or out then the pump is on its last legs and isn't worth running again at the risk of eating the cam gear. I don't throw them away though. I have a couple with axles I deemed to be too loose for comfort. If the aftermarket keeps making poor fitting replacements I may turn a new stepped diameter axles, ream the hole, and press it in to restore them.

It is sad that the aftermarket quality has gotten so poor that many pumps don't fit right out of the box. I mean honestly, how hard can it be to make a pump body 70.01-70.02mm. 69.99 is a total failure in my book. I'm very wary of aftermarket parts, and I don't use any without really checking things out carefully. The other one that pisses me off are Mahle and KS main bearings as of late. Again, not enough interfearance fit on many. Fortunately Silverline makes good quality T4 mains...or at least I haven't come across a small set yet. Aftermarket, beware of mains and oil pumps. Take nothing at face value.
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021

[oprn]

Again thanks for the tips on bearings and pumps!

Yes my pump idler shaft has backed out. The main reason I am changing it though is there has been water sitting in it at some point and the gears are quite pitted.
I wonder if it would work to drill the gear/shaft and drive in a roll pin. Then take a dremmel and trim it off flush very carefully to keep the shafts in place.

[nextgen]

Don't start me on aftermarket parts.
_________________
email: [email protected]
The TYPE IV UPRIGHT CONVERSION MANUAL
BEETLE MAGNETIC DEFLECTOR SHIELDS
LETS TALK DUBS https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=joe+cali+ghia https://letstalkdubs.libsyn.com/ep-200-joe-cali-ty...qI3xJTCzjs

[modok]

I turned several small grooves in the shaft where it goes in the pump body, wire brushed the hole in the pump, and coated both surfaces with loctite sleeve retainer and drove it back in.

Locktite will inhabit the small grooves and actually will hold it in place.
Aluminum surfaces have a thin film of oxide on the surface, this needs to be disturbed to get the loctite in contact with fresh metal which gives a fast and strong cure.

[Alstrup]

A 30 mm pump is waaay too much for an almost stock engine. 26 mm is fine. Expect to have to trim the pump housing to clear the cam gear.
The Berg pumps are "just" modified Shadek pumps. Nothing special there.

T

[raygreenwood]

[H2OSB]

I am often surprised by all of the great info a lot of you guys have to share.

This is great to know for my 1911 upright conversion.

H2OSB

[Vanapplebomb]

Ray, aluminum anodizing has gone thru my mind too. I may do that to the couple pumps I have laying around if I ever make new idler gear shafts for them. Having a like new T4 pump that actually fits the engine case properly is definetly worth the cost and time considering the junk that's on the market now.

You also got me really curious...what is the part number on your pump with 26mm tall gears?? The pumps I have on hand are 021-115-141A, and they have 24mm tall gears. It would be interesting if there was another factory pump floating around out there. I was under the assumption they were all the same regardless of displacement. If ya got something special I would sure love to know about it.
_________________
1800 Type 4 Berrien 295

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021

[raygreenwood]

[modok]

24mm (approx) was a stock size of one or two I came across as well, late model bus.
of course, if your going to rebuild the pump, could put fresh gears in it.
The gears are sintered iron and cut like butter. You can buy 26 or 30mm gears and trim then to any custom size. Ray's procedure seems a bit complex, I'd resurface the pump with junk gears or some other way, then trim new ones to fit, about ,001 clearance, you do need some clearance, for cold weather.

[raygreenwood]