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type 4 engine - oil pump replace
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modok
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:30 pm    Post subject: Re: type 4 engine - oil pump replace Reply with quote

Well, not really sure. I think tools to resurface it could be made in a few hours time, but easier said then done.
I won't be doing it of my own will, but if it was a paying job, I might, and it could happen.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 10:34 am    Post subject: Re: type 4 engine - oil pump replace Reply with quote

modok wrote:
Well, not really sure. I think tools to resurface it could be made in a few hours time, but easier said then done.
I won't be doing it of my own will, but if it was a paying job, I might, and it could happen.


Actually.....you ARE correct to a large extent. If one were going to do this.....more than say a handful of times....ie.....as a business for pay (or even as a break even service really).....a mandrel that is shaped to fit to allow machining the inner deck could be made fairly easily.

However there is a real merit to NOT trying to cut or machine versus lapping the material away.

My main point is not being made very well because I have not posted any pictures to look at while discussing this. I will post some in a few when I can get to my computer.

The issue is that the inlet and exit port...."scoops" or chutes...are part of the plug or plate that is inserted in the cam side of the pump. The pump body itself simply has a pair of holes bored in it to line up with the inlet/exit ports or chutes.
Unless you REALLY have first set up control of your machining process......meaning if you mess up the deck machining by more than a couple thousandths....or if its out of plane.....there is no second chance.

If you are already lapping away a couple thousandths under the gears in the bore.....and maybe a couple in the plate or plug.....and then have to remove the same .001"-.003" from the inner deck to match the top level of the new gears because of what you removed in the gear bores........you run into the problem of the exit and inlet ports not lining up with the exit holes in the pump body. Yes....you can hand grind those away on one side......but the final problem is that the o-ring can very quickly slip inward and intersect the inlet/outlet ports.....leading to not being able to seal the pump.

If these pumps have been heavily gouged or worn on the gear end areas ....both in the bore and on the plate....and you have to lap too much away.....they are just not rebuildable.

I have rebuilt a couple......using an epoxy lapping plate that was cast on a sheet of glass. It worked....just barely. I did not have the cash to have a lapping plate machined. I have not yet rebuilt one with hard anodizing.....but it should work well. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: type 4 engine - oil pump replace Reply with quote

Ok…so these pictures are not the best quality..…I did them on the fly and I’m down with bronchitis so between drugs and liquor I cant focus as well as I should. Shocked Laughing

These may not help all that much for someone who wants to rebuild one of these but it kind of shows the issues that need to be taken account of.
FIRST…a warning about type 4 pumps…..it could be with all ACVW pumps…but I cannot really speak to type 1 as much.

Be careful when setting the tolerance/gap between the pump body driveshaft boss and ANY aftermarket cam that uses bolts instead of rivets to attach the gear. Also….it is foolish NOT to use double thrust cam bearings as insurance.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is the result of what happens when the thrust collar of a single sided stock thrust bearing cracked off at 86k miles. The can was a web 73 with clearanced bolt heads, Loctite and Schnoor lock washers. The clearance from memory was probably about .065”-.070”. This pump is repairable with some work.

However….

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This….and the resulting valve, head, pushrod and piston carnage at 3500 rpm on an on ramp….did not buff out too well.

The moral of the story…is that proper clearance of at least 1.5X the thrust collar thickness on the bearing…probably about .085”…and the use of double thrust bearings would have prevented this.

The loss of thrust collar…unless you see it in the oil as a complete cracked off part….manifests itself as a very light and intermittent tapping at idle. Sounds similar to a sticky elephant foot valve adjuster or even possibly a light exhaust leak. It goes away in minutes after warmup. Engine runs perfect. I learned/realized all of this in hindsight.

What was happening is that one or more of the cam bolts was tapping on either the boss of the oil pump, or one of the oil pump nuts or both. When it reached just the right point…one of the cam bolts decided to unscrew itself.
It literally ripped that bolt out sideways when it contact one of the oil pump studs….shearing off the stud…and depositing the cam bolt between the crank gear and cam gear…..all in about 1-2 seconds…shearing off most of the gear teeth (naaaasty sound)…bending all the valves, denting all the pistons and damaging one valve seat.

OK….the pump.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Yes…sorry they are all 24mm pumps in type 4. I have no idea where I glommed onto 26mm when I have three on my workbench.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


So the type 4 pump body is built backwards from type 1. This is the main pump body looking rearward.

The red arrows point to the areas that will need to be lapped by usually about .002” to .003” to clean up scoring when the pump has been used by someone who is too lazy to change the oil and filter on a regular basis.

The black arrow points to the inner deck…that must be reduced by the same amount that you lap the gear face bores. So…you need to pull the studs.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This is the side of the gear bore of the gear driven by the cam. You can see there is no deep recess to support the shaft in the bottom of this bore. On type 4 the shaft does not protrude above the top of the driven gear.

Because of this…when using heavy oil like 20/50 and high rpm….the gear gets side loaded and wears the bore wall more as well as wears the shaft bore more in the housing.
You can see that the particles that went through this engine were large enough to create serious gouges. This is NOT the one that was damaged. The bearings in this engine looked just as bad. Change your oil!

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This is the bore of the idle gear…whose shaft protrudes into the counter boss and is supported. This bore generally wears less.

Either way….cleaning up these bore walls by lapping and then being able to make up the .001” average that they have been worn…..by hard anodizing…would really make these pumps when refurbished. a lot more efficient.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


A closer picture of the driven gear bore…sorry for the focus.

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The idle gear bore…sorry for the focus

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This is the inner sealing and gear plate. Notice the alignment cuff around the bolts at 2:00 position. The tightness of this is critical.

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With the gears off….you can see the scoring. This one is the same one that had dirty oil. This will take a little less than .003” of lapping to clean up.

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This one had much cleaner oil….it was one of my engines. It will still take about .0015” of lapping maybe more.

The reason why how much you lap from both the plate surfaces and the inner deck is critical…is because….

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The inlet and outlet ports will need to be reshaped…along with the outlet ports in the main body…..to match. There is also not much room to play before you get close to the O-ring area. This is a factory port. Kind of crappy looking.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


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This is what one of the inner pump plates looks like after its been “massaged” to match and flow better…both to fit the oil pump body and to match the ports on the engine case. This one is from the damaged pump.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


This kind of shows the combined problems you need to look out for. This is the inner gear plate halfway out. We will be lapping the inner face of this plate….and also the inner deck of the pump body….for a total of probably about .007” to .010” ….so the gear plate fits in farther.

The port in the pump body will need to be widened slightly to better match the engine case…and the inner port on the gear plate will need to me widened and smoothed to match….and you cannot nick the seal area. Not too hard….but things to look out for.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


For some alternate reference….this is a Melling cast iron 30mm pump on the left. From the part # when I ordered it….this was said to be set up for a type 4 and drop right in…and it did. Note that its shaft boss is the exact same height.

The problem is that its pressure immediately caused bypass of the oil cooler ad anything above about 1200-1500 rpm. I could have tweaked with the oil pressure spring and probably have gotten that fixed ….but it was risky as its upper end oil pressure could peak at 80-90 psi…with SAE-30 oil.
The other thing I found….is that when cold…the fit in the case on this pump was superb. However when I was just about to remove this pump and noticed a leak between case and pump…..I loosened the nuts while the engine was moderately warm to check the gasket….and the pump body was loose in the case. It does not expand as fast.

The Melling pump should really be o-ringed around the ports to not have possible serious internal leakage into the case. This does not have to require machine work…if you are crafty. I will get into that at a different point if you are interested.
Ray
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modok
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 5:36 pm    Post subject: Re: type 4 engine - oil pump replace Reply with quote

If you want to cover all details, I think is important to mention, the thrust face of the cam needs to be finely polished.
The grand majority of aftermarket cams they don't mask off the thrust faces when parkerizing or heat treating, causing it to be rough, and that will eat the thrust bearing.

Pictures are good enough to see, your pump looks better than most. Shocked
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:43 pm    Post subject: Re: type 4 engine - oil pump replace Reply with quote

modok wrote:
If you want to cover all details, I think is important to mention, the thrust face of the cam needs to be finely polished.
The grand majority of aftermarket cams they don't mask off the thrust faces when parkerizing or heat treating, causing it to be rough, and that will eat the thrust bearing.

Pictures are good enough to see, your pump looks better than most. Shocked


Thank you for adding that thrust face note. Yes....it can really chew up the pump shaft.

Yes....these were the best pumps I had out of about 10 i picked up over the years...and the only three I currently have.

Sadly most of the really crapped out ones you find....are from bus engines. Far too many owners simply do not change their own enough. Also far too many bus owners drive for ages pumping shit from a self destructing engine through their oil system......or use crappy Fram filters that peforate.....pumping crap through the system.

One of the main issues with these pumps is that they are all aluminum.....no steel or cast iron cover plate. And.....they are built backwards from a type 1 pump.....so once th3 body starts wearing allowing axial play of the gears.....it can hammer both bore and plate. Once tolerances get high ...axially.....on the gears...they wear faster....many pumps I find can have as much as .010" or more of gear wear in the plate and bore....a total of .010" or more. Really sloppy pumps.

Too many type 4 pumps for sale.....that never crack the pump open to show the guts. Just "good used type 4 pump for sale" Rolling Eyes Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 15, 2021 8:32 pm    Post subject: Re: type 4 engine - oil pump replace Reply with quote

hi, does anyone happen to know the size of the o ring on the T4 pumps? and if they can be found sold separately? im making a 40hp pump cover with a o ring slot to seal the body and cover instewd of the gasket, but cant seem to find the correct oring size without having custom ones made.

the OD is 67mm, ID 66. and the height should be 1mm.

sooo... did i get lucky? Very Happy

thanks
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Vanapplebomb
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:35 am    Post subject: Re: type 4 engine - oil pump replace Reply with quote

1st, no, I don’t know the size. Maybe someone does. I have never needed one outside of the rebuild gasket kit before. I doubt many people have before. It is not a part that typically fails, requiring a new o-ring apart from a full engine rebuild.

2nd, where exactly are you using this o-ring? Between your T1 pump cover and body? Stock style T1 pumps use a paper gasket between the pump cover and body. You do realize that this o-ring is internal to the T4 pump, right? It’s not for sealing the pump flange to the case. There is a paper gasket that seals the pump flange to the engine case.

Are you modifying your T1 pump for an o-ring? If so, why? What’s wrong with the paper gasket? If it is weeping, just get a new gasket and make sure the body and cover of the pump and flat and burr free. Shouldn’t leak.

More information may help, or a new topic started since this is T4 pumps in this thread.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 10:58 am    Post subject: Re: type 4 engine - oil pump replace Reply with quote

Vanapplebomb wrote:
1st, no, I don’t know the size. Maybe someone does. I have never needed one outside of the rebuild gasket kit before. I doubt many people have before. It is not a part that typically fails, requiring a new o-ring apart from a full engine rebuild.

2nd, where exactly are you using this o-ring? Between your T1 pump cover and body? Stock style T1 pumps use a paper gasket between the pump cover and body. You do realize that this o-ring is internal to the T4 pump, right? It’s not for sealing the pump flange to the case. There is a paper gasket that seals the pump flange to the engine case.

Are you modifying your T1 pump for an o-ring? If so, why? What’s wrong with the paper gasket? If it is weeping, just get a new gasket and make sure the body and cover of the pump and flat and burr free. Shouldn’t leak.

More information may help, or a new topic started since this is T4 pumps in this thread.



Kind of the same question I have.

Type 1 based pumps are only capable of OUTWARDLY leaking between case and main pump body or the outer plate and pump body....so either use a gasket or run a bead of serious sealant between pump flange and case.....or....and it may be what he is asking about....I have seen a couple of people put an o-ring in this joint....see the red arrow below.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The only reason to do that is when the fit between pump body and case causes too much vibration and teh gasket cannot stop the leak....or in the case of this Melling pump in the picture .....because the pump expands at a different rate and gets loose and leaks.

But....in either of those cases....it does not fix the leakage between the pump inlet and outlet ports and the inlet and outlet ports in the engine case.....which is why you have companies like Berg....that machine the oil pump for an EXTERNAL o-ring....right where the yellow dashed line is.

As Vanapplebomb noted.....the type 4 oil pump o-ring is a totally different animal. Its INSIDE of the oil pump. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: type 4 engine - oil pump replace Reply with quote

hi, i wanted to try something new. these pics may help
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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 1:05 pm    Post subject: Re: type 4 engine - oil pump replace Reply with quote

So, if designing from scratch, why not just use an off the shelf standard o-ring. Most hardware stores have loads of them in the plumbing section. Having an off the shelf standard sized o-ring will be much easier to get replacements for in the future as well, since they can be had just about anywhere.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:40 pm    Post subject: Re: type 4 engine - oil pump replace Reply with quote

So let me make sure I have this correct.

You want to .....o-ring.....the outer lid.... between the pump and body....right?

Thats a noble cause. Quite a while back ....many years.....I wondered why this was not simply done. It "seemed" to make sense.

Then working on type 1 based pumps for type 3 engines.....it did not take long to realize that putting the wrong thickness of gasket between lid and pump.....was not just a leakage problem but can DRASTICALLY curtail the output pressure at various rpm ranges. Its also part of the same issue that requires lapping of cheap cover plates to get them flat.

The operative problem being that just a couple thousandths of excess gap and the internal pressure bleeds from one side of the pump to the other. Makes cavitation and volume issues.

Years later.....rebuilding type 4 pumps......its an even larger demonstration of how critical that minute gap between the top of the pump chamber and gears is.....because its so much harder to repair on a type 4 pump. Most type 4 pumps even with good gear lash....are worn out pumps with just a couple of thousandths too much headroom. They make poor volume and pressure.

So.....the problem you are going to have.....is that an o-ring is a very specific seal. You need to have just the right amount of o-ring protruding proud of its sealing groove.....to compress/distort....with enough pressure to be a barrier to letting oil past it.....but at the same time.....it cannot be allowed to have ANY excess seal volume that will allow it to load up and become a solid surface that keeps the plate from producing an EXACT gap between plate and the top of the gears......or you will lose some pump capability.

Now.....if your pump is already a good deal oversized......it may not be an issue. But it makes for a pretty inefficient pump if the gap is too large. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:16 pm    Post subject: Re: type 4 engine - oil pump replace Reply with quote

Vanapplebomb wrote:
So, if designing from scratch, why not just use an off the shelf standard o-ring. Most hardware stores have loads of them in the plumbing section. Having an off the shelf standard sized o-ring will be much easier to get replacements for in the future as well, since they can be had just about anywhere.


hi. the oil pump also has the same size ring on the face so they have to be the same size on the cover. thanks
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: type 4 engine - oil pump replace Reply with quote

ray, if by lid you mean pump cover, you are correct. instead of using the gasket between the oil pump and its cover, i want to use an o ring.

im doing homework on o ring materials, and i will ask a mechanical engineer i know in a few days. so i will probably have el china make me a batch of o rings.

your concern with the gear endplay is the same as mine. if i can get an o ring to squish down completely in the groove, without allowing leaks, i think it will work out well.

an issue im having tho is these brosol 40hp pumps are absolute shit. the flat surfaces look lile theyve been hand filed, the 6mm holes still have raised edges, the surface finish in the bores and gear seat area is crap. so these pumps will need work anyhow regarding backlash and endplay.

thanks
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 7:41 pm    Post subject: Re: type 4 engine - oil pump replace Reply with quote

Chickensoup wrote:
ray, if by lid you mean pump cover, you are correct. instead of using the gasket between the oil pump and its cover, i want to use an o ring.

im doing homework on o ring materials, and i will ask a mechanical engineer i know in a few days. so i will probably have el china make me a batch of o rings.

your concern with the gear endplay is the same as mine. if i can get an o ring to squish down completely in the groove, without allowing leaks, i think it will work out well.

an issue im having tho is these brosol 40hp pumps are absolute shit. the flat surfaces look lile theyve been hand filed, the 6mm holes still have raised edges, the surface finish in the bores and gear seat area is crap. so these pumps will need work anyhow regarding backlash and endplay.

thanks


The material is not a difficult one to find...per se. It will have to be a fluoroelastomer. Choices are Viton (several in the family) ....or perfluoroelastomer like Kalrez....also known as FFKM (a whole family) ...or even a fluorosilicone ...but the durometer needs to be not too low.....or...that may be exactly what you need....yeah.

These are the only rubbers that REAllY stand up to the combination of oil, dirty oil with fuel....heat and compression shear.

There are enough o-ring mfgs here in the US. I would stay away from China because its going to be all about material selection and resin quality. Sure...they can mold just fine but we already have rubber issues these days even with Viton.

Or......if you want to speak a little....out of public Wink ...there are some high end...really high end cast-able fluorosilicones and even a viton I know of. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:17 pm    Post subject: Re: type 4 engine - oil pump replace Reply with quote

Bugpack used to make pumps ( back in the 90-s) with a large o-ring between the pump housing and cover. It was a thin o-ring and possibly a standard american size since they did the machining in house in Costa Mesa. Not sure if pumps like that still made by somebody today.
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 16, 2021 9:41 pm    Post subject: Re: type 4 engine - oil pump replace Reply with quote

Tvättbjörn wrote:
Bugpack used to make pumps ( back in the 90-s) with a large o-ring between the pump housing and cover. It was a thin o-ring and possibly a standard american size since they did the machining in house in Costa Mesa. Not sure if pumps like that still made by somebody today.


I remember those. A really deep groove.

I think the problem I heard is that when you went to replace the o-ring...it was unique to Bugpak....so if you did not keep a spare you could not easily get one.

It was not the diameter of the ring that was the problem if I remember right...that was standard SAE...it was the cross section which was not standard. Outside of that I never heard any complaints about it.

Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 17, 2021 6:01 am    Post subject: Re: type 4 engine - oil pump replace Reply with quote

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but EMW modifies a Shadek pump for a tighter fit in the case bore by sleeving it. It’s not in their website, just call Jorge.
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 9:17 pm    Post subject: Re: type 4 engine - oil pump replace Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
Tvättbjörn wrote:
Bugpack used to make pumps ( back in the 90-s) with a large o-ring between the pump housing and cover. It was a thin o-ring and possibly a standard american size since they did the machining in house in Costa Mesa. Not sure if pumps like that still made by somebody today.


I remember those. A really deep groove.

I think the problem I heard is that when you went to replace the o-ring...it was unique to Bugpak....so if you did not keep a spare you could not easily get one.

It was not the diameter of the ring that was the problem if I remember right...that was standard SAE...it was the cross section which was not standard. Outside of that I never heard any complaints about it.

Ray


Zero complain on the pumps. We all did install them in every engine whenever possible. Never had one leak. Should be easy to modify new pumps for an o-ring if you find a good size and have a lathe to do the job. The groove was actually not that deep. Maybe 1.5 mm - 2.0 mm at the most
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 6:02 am    Post subject: Re: type 4 engine - oil pump replace Reply with quote

orwell84 wrote:
Not sure if this has been mentioned, but EMW modifies a Shadek pump for a tighter fit in the case bore by sleeving it. It’s not in their website, just call Jorge.


CB performance offers one now as well. They machine down a T1 pump, and then sleeve it up to the correct diameter.

It seems people have been listening to us bang on about the crap T1 pump body machining tolerances over the last couple years, and have responded by introducing those modified pumps to correct figment issues. Cool
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bugguy1967
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Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4338
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
bugguy1967 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 10:59 am    Post subject: Re: type 4 engine - oil pump replace Reply with quote

I have two of these left: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2450773
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"A petrol engine can start readily, run smoothly and give every appearance of being in good order, without necessarily being in good tune." - Colin Campbell, "The Sportscar Engine"
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