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Franklinstower
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2006
Posts: 1896
Location: PNW
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 Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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Any issues using the Uro TS2?
https://www.autohausaz.com/pn/12631852-UR-31190604...ed_Porsche
Although my bug is running fine, I tested mine cold at 5k ohms.
Thanks, Paul
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'89 Westy - EJ25/22 Frank 4.44 5mt
'75 Miami Blue Sunroof FI Standard Bug |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51145
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 3:00 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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| Gr0unded wrote: |
| Gr0unded wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| I assume you've done a recent valve adjustment and compression test?, you might try a vacuum gauge on the manifold as well to see if it's getting really low when the symptom starts. |
After checking the other items mentioned above this morning, still not idling. The thought came to me as well to check valve clearances. The valves were adjusted within the last 500-1000 miles, possible they have moved again. I don't have tools to do a compression test or vacuum check gauge. |
Checked the valves, several of them tighten up. Adjusted the valves to .002 since these are chromoly pushrods. With the crank case breaker restricted with a clamp to the hose, still will not idle on its own, must keep foot on gas for it to run and the relay is clicking away up until about 1200 rpms then it stops clicking. I'm going to start a separate thread so we're not clogging this FI section. |
Hmmm...., Steel pushrods eh?, any chance the cam isn't stock as well?
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Gr0unded
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2018
Posts: 256
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 8:55 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| Gr0unded wrote: |
| Gr0unded wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| I assume you've done a recent valve adjustment and compression test?, you might try a vacuum gauge on the manifold as well to see if it's getting really low when the symptom starts. |
After checking the other items mentioned above this morning, still not idling. The thought came to me as well to check valve clearances. The valves were adjusted within the last 500-1000 miles, possible they have moved again. I don't have tools to do a compression test or vacuum check gauge. |
Checked the valves, several of them tighten up. Adjusted the valves to .002 since these are chromoly pushrods. With the crank case breaker restricted with a clamp to the hose, still will not idle on its own, must keep foot on gas for it to run and the relay is clicking away up until about 1200 rpms then it stops clicking. I'm going to start a separate thread so we're not clogging this FI section. |
Hmmm...., Steel pushrods eh?, any chance the cam isn't stock as well? |
Yep, Chromoly steel PR with a cheater cam (CB 2280). I ran out of time today, will check the timing and the distributor next. It's been running relatively well for the last few thousand miles until now. I am also concerned why the valves keep getting tighter every few hundred miles, seems they need adjustment way more often that I think would be necessary.
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51145
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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Uro is developing a reputation that rivals EMPI, I'd avoid them if there's any alternatives available.
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51145
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2023 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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| Gr0unded wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| Gr0unded wrote: |
| Gr0unded wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| I assume you've done a recent valve adjustment and compression test?, you might try a vacuum gauge on the manifold as well to see if it's getting really low when the symptom starts. |
After checking the other items mentioned above this morning, still not idling. The thought came to me as well to check valve clearances. The valves were adjusted within the last 500-1000 miles, possible they have moved again. I don't have tools to do a compression test or vacuum check gauge. |
Checked the valves, several of them tighten up. Adjusted the valves to .002 since these are chromoly pushrods. With the crank case breaker restricted with a clamp to the hose, still will not idle on its own, must keep foot on gas for it to run and the relay is clicking away up until about 1200 rpms then it stops clicking. I'm going to start a separate thread so we're not clogging this FI section. |
Hmmm...., Steel pushrods eh?, any chance the cam isn't stock as well? |
Yep, Chromoly steel PR with a cheater cam (CB 2280). I ran out of time today, will check the timing and the distributor next. It's been running relatively well for the last few thousand miles until now. I am also concerned why the valves keep getting tighter every few hundred miles, seems they need adjustment way more often that I think would be necessary. |
It's a bit odd that it's ran OK up until recently, a few have had idle issues with L-jet and aftermarket cams but why are these issues just showing up now for you?
I'd start with a compression test and vacuum gauge readings to assess the engine's overall health, possibly a look in the sump for shiny stuff as well.
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MuzzcoVW
Samba Member
Joined: February 21, 2018
Posts: 1474
Location: Westfield, MA.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2023 4:56 am Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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| Gr0unded wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| Gr0unded wrote: |
| Gr0unded wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| I assume you've done a recent valve adjustment and compression test?, you might try a vacuum gauge on the manifold as well to see if it's getting really low when the symptom starts. |
After checking the other items mentioned above this morning, still not idling. The thought came to me as well to check valve clearances. The valves were adjusted within the last 500-1000 miles, possible they have moved again. I don't have tools to do a compression test or vacuum check gauge. |
Checked the valves, several of them tighten up. Adjusted the valves to .002 since these are chromoly pushrods. With the crank case breaker restricted with a clamp to the hose, still will not idle on its own, must keep foot on gas for it to run and the relay is clicking away up until about 1200 rpms then it stops clicking. I'm going to start a separate thread so we're not clogging this FI section. |
Hmmm...., Steel pushrods eh?, any chance the cam isn't stock as well? |
Yep, Chromoly steel PR with a cheater cam (CB 2280). I ran out of time today, will check the timing and the distributor next. It's been running relatively well for the last few thousand miles until now. I am also concerned why the valves keep getting tighter every few hundred miles, seems they need adjustment way more often that I think would be necessary. |
So... a couple things. The clicking at idle sounds like an issue I had on someones car. Somebody had been "Effing" with the AFM. In doing so when the engine was trying to ilde the fuel pump contacts in the AFM were intermittently opening and closing. This can happen if someone moves the static mixture adjustment inside. ALSO you have a 2280 cam. What is your compression set at? If it wasn't raised to at very minimum 8:1 (should be 8:3 to 8:5) it will idle like crap to put it mildly. Ask me how I know... Changede my heads last minute on my last build and somehow forgot to check head CCs. Had to tear it right back down. Also the 2280 cam doesn't like low idle timing. I modded my OEM distributor to give me 10 BTDC at idle and 30 at 3000+ RPM. If you're using the vacuum retard with that cam, plug it right away and try timing to 7.5 BTDC. Always check max advance also!! |
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christyxy
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Joined: October 03, 2022
Posts: 22
Location: England
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:39 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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My '79 FI cabriolet is stock with the dual vacuum distributor. I static timed it to 5*ATDC and it runs horribly. Loosened distributor and been experimenting with it, seems to run better the more I advance it towards BTDC but I keep fiddling with it tbh as I don't have a strobe timing light (yet) or an RPM meter. Any advice based on your comment about blocking off the retard vac line and timing to 7.5*BTDC.
Any further advice about setting idle speed while I'm doing the timing? I started with the idle screw all the way in and have probably eased it out a full turn or so to stop it running so lumpy on start up.
Had a productive day installing new rear window seal, modified self supported starter motor and Bluetooth stereo!
Dropped the Mrs off to collect her Polo from it's major service so had to get this pic in front of the VW dealership garage. Thanks for all the help on here so far!
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51145
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Fri Mar 17, 2023 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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Nice looking car!
Sadly there's no way to time that without a strobe, even a cheap one will do if you calculate 32 degrees from TDC, or print a degree wheel to mark the pulley.
For now static time it to 7.5* BTDC, the -5* only comes in to play when it's running and the throttle is closed.
Idle speed doesn't really need a tach for now, get it halfassed timed and set the speed to where it's smooth and stays running.
But you should invest in a timing light, or make friends with someone who has one. When you do set it to +32* with both hoses off and revved until the mark stops advancing (usually ~ 3500RPM), idle timing doesn't count on 44 year old systems (unless you only drive at idle all day). 
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Gr0unded
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2018
Posts: 256
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 6:37 am Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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| MuzzcoVW wrote: |
| Gr0unded wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| Gr0unded wrote: |
| Gr0unded wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| I assume you've done a recent valve adjustment and compression test?, you might try a vacuum gauge on the manifold as well to see if it's getting really low when the symptom starts. |
After checking the other items mentioned above this morning, still not idling. The thought came to me as well to check valve clearances. The valves were adjusted within the last 500-1000 miles, possible they have moved again. I don't have tools to do a compression test or vacuum check gauge. |
Checked the valves, several of them tighten up. Adjusted the valves to .002 since these are chromoly pushrods. With the crank case breaker restricted with a clamp to the hose, still will not idle on its own, must keep foot on gas for it to run and the relay is clicking away up until about 1200 rpms then it stops clicking. I'm going to start a separate thread so we're not clogging this FI section. |
Hmmm...., Steel pushrods eh?, any chance the cam isn't stock as well? |
Yep, Chromoly steel PR with a cheater cam (CB 2280). I ran out of time today, will check the timing and the distributor next. It's been running relatively well for the last few thousand miles until now. I am also concerned why the valves keep getting tighter every few hundred miles, seems they need adjustment way more often that I think would be necessary. |
So... a couple things. The clicking at idle sounds like an issue I had on someones car. Somebody had been "Effing" with the AFM. In doing so when the engine was trying to ilde the fuel pump contacts in the AFM were intermittently opening and closing. This can happen if someone moves the static mixture adjustment inside. ALSO you have a 2280 cam. What is your compression set at? If it wasn't raised to at very minimum 8:1 (should be 8:3 to 8:5) it will idle like crap to put it mildly. Ask me how I know... Changede my heads last minute on my last build and somehow forgot to check head CCs. Had to tear it right back down. Also the 2280 cam doesn't like low idle timing. I modded my OEM distributor to give me 10 BTDC at idle and 30 at 3000+ RPM. If you're using the vacuum retard with that cam, plug it right away and try timing to 7.5 BTDC. Always check max advance also!! |
Appreciate you guys responding to this issue. Like I said before, it had been running seemingly okay (at least to me) for some time now approximately 7-8k miles. The static adjustment was richen very slightly. The build sheet for this motor states the compression ratio is 8.5:1. When adjusting the timing, the motor responds well to 7.5 BTDC at idle, which works out to about 31-32 BTDC at 3k rpms (vacuum hose off). The motor seems happy around 1000rpms at idle. Which reminds me, when this engine was able to hold an idle previous to this issue, I recall adjusting the idle mixture screw made no difference which I thought was odd at the time but moved on.
I finally went and bought a compression tester.
Compression test results:
Cyl 1 - 140#
Cyl 2 - 145#
Cyl 3 - 60#
Cyl 4 - 60#
Keep in mind the valves were adjusted the week before with like one minute or less of run time on the motor since the adjustment. Looked closely at plugs 3 and 4 and did see very very small metal flakes on and around the tip. This thing must have been detonating for some time now. If it has been pinging, I must be deaf (literally) to it.
Leading to me another thought, I noticed this VW10 vacuum distributor when checking the timing with hoses/everything in place, 3k rpms and higher gets the advance upwards of 42-44 BTDC. Understanding that vacuum operates highest at light throttle, is this way too much advance on a L-jet FI system?
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Lost69Convertible
Samba Member
Joined: July 29, 2020
Posts: 447
Location: Rhode Island
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 7:30 am Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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| Gr0unded wrote: |
| Leading to me another thought, I noticed this VW10 vacuum distributor when checking the timing with hoses/everything in place, 3k rpms and higher gets the advance upwards of 42-44 BTDC. Understanding that vacuum operates highest at light throttle, is this way too much advance on a L-jet FI system? |
On a stock ‘79 FI with a Bosch 043 905 205 H distributor newly rebuilt and tested by VWNOS, I get 35 degrees BTDC at 3500 RPM with the advance and retard hoses connected.
(And it’s 5 degrees ATDC at 1000 RPM idle)
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1969 Beetle Convertible: My first car. I loved it, I lost it, and I never got over it.
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51145
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 8:46 am Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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| Gr0unded wrote: |
I finally went and bought a compression tester.
Compression test results:
Cyl 1 - 140#
Cyl 2 - 145#
Cyl 3 - 60#
Cyl 4 - 60# |
Well that explains the lousy idle. 
It's hard to say if the distributor is fully to blame, it's easy to hit some big advance numbers in the driveway, under load the vacuum changes and it doesn't get nearly that high.
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Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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Lost69Convertible
Samba Member
Joined: July 29, 2020
Posts: 447
Location: Rhode Island
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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It seems that many become concerned about 5 degrees ATDC at idle with a DVDA distributor and use it as a reference for the total advance at 3500 RPM. Here’s my experience:
If I remove the retard hose at 1000 RPM idle, my timing changes from 5 ATDC to 7.5 BTDC. This is reassuring and makes sense - the DVDA becomes an SVDA.
With both retard and advance hoses connected, when I rev the engine a few hundred RPM above idle, the timing jumps from 5 ATDC to 7.5 BTDC rapidly.
I’ve test driven the car with the retard hose connected vs. the retard hose disconnected and plugged. I can’t tell the difference. Since I engage the clutch with the engine revving above idle, the timing is about 7.5+ BTDC in both cases.
My conclusion: 5 ATDC doesn’t matter and doesn’t occur while you’re moving. 5 ATDC is an idle condition used to reduce unburned hydrocarbons.
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1956 Beetle Ragtop: My Father's car
1969 Beetle Convertible: My first car. I loved it, I lost it, and I never got over it.
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busdaddy
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Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51145
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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I wonder if the damage isn't from timing, but instead caused by a lean condition on that side?
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Gr0unded
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2018
Posts: 256
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2023 1:09 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| I wonder if the damage isn't from timing, but instead caused by a lean condition on that side? |
Lost, thanks for feedback on the timing of stock FI distributor.
At this stage, I'm having m mechanic check out what the damage is. Stay tuned.
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zoti
Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2007
Posts: 2061
Location: Plano, TX USA
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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I am about to remove the alternator from my 79 for a rebuild.
I need some tips on how to do it efficiently.
From what I can see I need to remove AFM and air filter, S boot and probably the intake plenum as well. Was hoping I wouldn't have to take off the plenum but not sure.
The Bentley says you need to lift the fan shroud but I'm not sure why. What needs to be undone to do that?
Any good tips? |
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busdaddy
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Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2023 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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Removing the plenum is a pain, try to avoid that if at all possible.
You can get the alternator out without lifting the shroud, remove the big nut from the fan end of the generator and leave the fan in the shroud (don't lose track of the shims on the fan hub). The only possible reason you can't do it that way is if your car has screws instead of hex head bolts on the lower two holes attaching the alternator backing plate to the shroud, even if it did I'd spend some time with an angled screwdriver or vise grips to get those out, lifting the shroud is a pain too.
Before the final install of the new unit put the fan on it on the bench and check the gap between it and the back plate, shim if needed and make sure it goes back in the car the same way, you can't check fan gap once it's in the car.
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zoti
Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2007
Posts: 2061
Location: Plano, TX USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
Removing the plenum is a pain, try to avoid that if at all possible.
You can get the alternator out without lifting the shroud, remove the big nut from the fan end of the generator and leave the fan in the shroud (don't lose track of the shims on the fan hub). The only possible reason you can't do it that way is if your car has screws instead of hex head bolts on the lower two holes attaching the alternator backing plate to the shroud, even if it did I'd spend some time with an angled screwdriver or vise grips to get those out, lifting the shroud is a pain too.
Before the final install of the new unit put the fan on it on the bench and check the gap between it and the back plate, shim if needed and make sure it goes back in the car the same way, you can't check fan gap once it's in the car. |
If I'm leaving the fan in the shroud then how would I test it on the bench when reinstalling? |
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busdaddy
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Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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Once the alternator's out you can remove the fan, you just can't get the whole assembly out as one because the lower part of the backing plate runs into the intake manifold, by removing the fan you can lift it up over the obstruction.
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zoti
Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2007
Posts: 2061
Location: Plano, TX USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| Once the alternator's out you can remove the fan, you just can't get the whole assembly out as one because the lower part of the backing plate runs into the intake manifold, by removing the fan you can lift it up over the obstruction. |
Don't these bolts hold the backing plate to the alternator back?
So if I understand correctly, I take the nut off the fan, then undo the 4 bolts holding the backing plate. Pull the backing plate and alternator off the fan just enough to get a wrench to undo these bolts. Once the bolts are off I can pull the alternator out.
If I use the same amount of shims between the alternator and the fan I should be back at the same distance from the backing plate, no?
To install, I put the alternator back into the backing plate that is almost back int he shroud, attach those 2 bolts, add the ships and push the alternator shaft into the fan. Put back the 4 backing plate screws and then tighten the fan bolt from the back?
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
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Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2023 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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No, not those, leave them alone.
The 4 bolts you are interested in are at the outer edge of the backing plate where it bolts to the shroud, the plate stays on the alternator during removal:
The lower two are down between the manifold and the shroud, that makes it impossible to get a screwdriver on them with a straight shot, if they are not hex heads you have to get creative and have lots of patience. It's not impossible, just challenging.
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