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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51153
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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zoti
Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2007
Posts: 2061
Location: Plano, TX USA
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 Posted: Sun Mar 26, 2023 8:28 am Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
No, not those, leave them alone.
The 4 bolts you are interested in are at the outer edge of the backing plate where it bolts to the shroud, the plate stays on the alternator during removal:
The lower two are down between the manifold and the shroud, that makes it impossible to get a screwdriver on them with a straight shot, if they are not hex heads you have to get creative and have lots of patience. It's not impossible, just challenging. |
Thanks,
They are hex on mine but the one behind the plenum is going to be a challenge. |
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cfroderman
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2021
Posts: 29
Location: Avon, IN
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2023 2:31 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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'77 FI - Temp Sensor II Problem
I've now had this vehicle I restored from an engine fire for about 18 months. Driven occasionally. This is the 4th Temp Sensor II I've had to replace. Indicated in previous posts - I've driven it and then stopped the engine. Either let it sit over a week or longer and it won't start after the drive. I've grounded out the wire and the engine then starts. Ohm reading on the bad sensors were 0 at room Temp. when tested according to Bentley procedures.
Question - What is causing these sensors to puke out? I bought them off Jbugs - Is there another, more reliable source? |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51153
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2023 3:15 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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First I've heard of that, maybe you are the first to get some of a bad batch?
You are sure it's the sensor and not corrosion or looseness on the threads into the head causing it?
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
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Lost69Convertible
Samba Member
Joined: July 29, 2020
Posts: 447
Location: Rhode Island
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2023 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| corrosion or looseness on the threads into the head causing it? |
This was the problem with my TS-2 sensor.
cfroderman - the Bentley manual calls for TS-2 resistance to be measured while screwed into the cylinder head. Try this to double check your sensor:
1. Remove the sensor from the cylinder head
2. Measure resistance from the spade connector to the threads on the body of the sensor
_________________
1956 Beetle Ragtop: My Father's car
1969 Beetle Convertible: My first car. I loved it, I lost it, and I never got over it.
1979 Super Beetle Convertible |
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cfroderman
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2021
Posts: 29
Location: Avon, IN
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| Posted: Wed Apr 12, 2023 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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The threads on the block are not corroded or stripped. When I measure the Ohms on the thread to the spade connector I get 0.
As I said, brand new sensor that has maybe 20 miles on it.
Is there maybe a short somewhere causing the problem? |
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christyxy
Samba Member
Joined: October 03, 2022
Posts: 22
Location: England
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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I recently installed a new TS2 thinking it might fix my (now resolved) rich running issue. (I found it to actually be caused by kinked fuel hose leading to high fuel pressure)
Nowadays bug struggles to start especially when cold, turns over for ages. Usually use a shot of "cold start" spray in the air intake snorkel. Fine once running.
I was thinking may be dodgy cold start injector but these recent posts have got me thinking I should test my TS2 resistance first in case it's faulty and thus telling the ECU not to fire the cold start injector in the first place... Thanks for the tip on how to test it. |
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cfroderman
Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2021
Posts: 29
Location: Avon, IN
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 12:38 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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Good luck christyxy. I actually found that when the Temp Sensor II wasn't showing any resistance, that it was actually calling for a "rich" mixture. When I removed the S boot or clamped down the fuel line pre-injector, the engine started and kept running. When I grounded the wire to the ECU that normally connects to the sensor, the engine started just fine as well.
I just bought another "2" sensor from Stockwise Auto for 50% of what Jbugs wants to charge. I'm still not convinced it is a bad batch of sensors, but could be wrong. I'm wondering if the engine temperature is getting too hot and causing the sensor to fail.
I've emailed APA Industries (the maker of the sensors) to try and get some technical specifications, but have not heard back from them. Next step is the phone call and go through VM hell. |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51153
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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| christyxy wrote: |
I recently installed a new TS2 thinking it might fix my (now resolved) rich running issue. (I found it to actually be caused by kinked fuel hose leading to high fuel pressure)
Nowadays bug struggles to start especially when cold, turns over for ages. Usually use a shot of "cold start" spray in the air intake snorkel. Fine once running.
I was thinking may be dodgy cold start injector but these recent posts have got me thinking I should test my TS2 resistance first in case it's faulty and thus telling the ECU not to fire the cold start injector in the first place... Thanks for the tip on how to test it. |
The ECU has nothing to do with the cold start system, it's controlled by the TTS down on the case seam above the lower pulley. The CSV only operates when the TTS is very cold, the specs are in the AFC or Bentley manual.
The first thing I'd be looking at is does the fuel pump rum when the key is turned to the crank (start) position?, there's a wire from the #50 terminal on the starter to the double relay that sometimes gets disconnected or corroded.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
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Lost69Convertible
Samba Member
Joined: July 29, 2020
Posts: 447
Location: Rhode Island
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| Posted: Sun Apr 23, 2023 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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cfroderman - here’s a wild guess about your TS-2 issue. Is there an obstruction down in the threaded hole that damages your sensor when installed? You can buy an M10X1 bolt and wind it in to check.
_________________
1956 Beetle Ragtop: My Father's car
1969 Beetle Convertible: My first car. I loved it, I lost it, and I never got over it.
1979 Super Beetle Convertible |
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Don Hounschell
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2023
Posts: 3
Location: MO
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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I have a '78 VW beetle convertible with less than 40,000 miles, constantly garaged. Suddenly will not start although engine turns freely when ignition is activated. Tested fuel pump when ignition is activated and no power. When power is directly applied to pump, it runs. When we bench tested the relay, it would click but no power passed through. As a result we tried to buy a new
Bosch relay but none available so bought a used one. The used one bench tested same as the original..I need HELP! Any su ggestions? |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51153
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2023 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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| Don Hounschell wrote: |
I have a '78 VW beetle convertible with less than 40,000 miles, constantly garaged. Suddenly will not start although engine turns freely when ignition is activated. Tested fuel pump when ignition is activated and no power. When power is directly applied to pump, it runs. When we bench tested the relay, it would click but no power passed through. As a result we tried to buy a new
Bosch relay but none available so bought a used one. The used one bench tested same as the original..I need HELP! Any su ggestions? |
Welcome!
Here's some light reading on DR issues: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/search.php?searc..._chars=200 , the Baywindow and Vanagon topics may also help as it's the same system and the same part.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
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Don Hounschell
Samba Member
Joined: May 12, 2023
Posts: 3
Location: MO
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2023 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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Thanks for the advice. After extensive testing we fourn the brown ground wire
connection at the battery to be loose. After tightening with pliers she started and is running fine. We initially thought the double relay needed replaced but found that Bosch has stopped production and no new units on shelves. We did locate a source for used units and got one so we have a spare now. |
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Franklinstower
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2006
Posts: 1896
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Fri May 19, 2023 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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I suddenly have a new issue that has arisen....Background: I picked up a `75 standard sunroof FI beetle about 15 months ago that had been sitting for 10+ years.
I pulled and resealed the fuel tank. Tested the fuel pump for volume (not pressure) replaced every fuel line, vacuum line, evap line front to back. New fuel filter, new injectors, cleaned up as much as I could with the engine in. replaced plugs, wires, points, cap and rotor. Set valves, oil change, air filter change. So essentially a full tune up ++. After all this it started and ran pretty good. I went to set the timing, noted the retard side of the vacuum can doesn't hold pressure. So I plugged the retard and set the timing to a max of 32 with the advance connected. I have been driving around now for about year, running errands etc, a few full freeway runs. Everything has been pretty damn good for this old beauty...until last week. after running around town for a while, pulled up to a traffic light and it died. It was tough getting it started again, but I did and made it home. I have now noted, every time I get up to operating temp, the idle drops really low and it stalls out. I believe it is too rich when warm at idle. I ohmed out the TS2 It appears to be good. about 2300 at 70 and 145 after a full drive to operating temp. I noted if I give it a vacuum leak when it is about to stall, the idle picks up and it seems to run pretty good with that air leak. (I pulled the EGR vacuum hose off to give it the leak - I don't have the egr system installed.)
Any suggestions to start? I was thinking possibly FP issue - either pump or FP Regulator, Maybe the AAR is closing too much? The big air bypass screw on the TB doesn't seem to do much.
Thanks for any ideas in advance!
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'89 Westy - EJ25/22 Frank 4.44 5mt
'75 Miami Blue Sunroof FI Standard Bug |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51153
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2023 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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A fuel pressure test may be a good place to start, could be a failing FPR, or a kink in the rubber return hose under the tank. Is the vacuum line to the FPR wet inside?
Your timing sounds badly retarded as well, 32 degrees is for max advance RPM with both the hoses off the distributor, leaving the advance hose on can really skew the settings.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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VW_Jimbo 
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2016
Posts: 9966
Location: Huntington Beach, CA
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2023 9:05 am Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
A fuel pressure test may be a good place to start, could be a failing FPR, or a kink in the rubber return hose under the tank. Is the vacuum line to the FPR wet inside?
Your timing sounds badly retarded as well, 32 degrees is for max advance RPM with both the hoses off the distributor, leaving the advance hose on can really skew the settings. |
Excellent start! Also, weak spark can mimic a rich condition. So be sure to check for weak spark!
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Jimbo
There is never enough time to do it right the first time, but all the time necessary the second time!
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Basically, a whole bunch of fuckery to achieve a look. |
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GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo!  |
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Franklinstower
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2006
Posts: 1896
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2023 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
A fuel pressure test may be a good place to start, could be a failing FPR, or a kink in the rubber return hose under the tank. Is the vacuum line to the FPR wet inside?
Your timing sounds badly retarded as well, 32 degrees is for max advance RPM with both the hoses off the distributor, leaving the advance hose on can really skew the settings. |
Vacuum line to the FPR is Dry. I double checked the hoses under the tank. All looks good, no kinks on return or supply. Also, I stated my timing incorrectly. It is indeed fully advanced at 32 with the vacuum advance hose disconnected. It runs so well until it gets hot, and continues to run well, just won't idle. Then when the RPM's drops too low and it dies, it is hard to start it again. Seems a lot of people have the opposite issue of running lousy until it gets hot...
I tested my coil: 4.1 ohms Primary; 8.78 K ohms secondary winding (it is a blue brazil coil 9 0220 081 083). My leads showed .3 ohms resistence, so I think I can reduce that 4.1 to 3.8 ohms. I am going to pull plugs and confirm compression too.
_________________
'89 Westy - EJ25/22 Frank 4.44 5mt
'75 Miami Blue Sunroof FI Standard Bug |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51153
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2023 1:39 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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The part of the hose that kinks can't really be seen without lifting the tank, unless you can get a borescope up in there.
When it's warmed up and running crappy what happens when you ground the TS2 wire to the engine case?
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
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Franklinstower
Samba Member
Joined: September 21, 2006
Posts: 1896
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2023 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
The part of the hose that kinks can't really be seen without lifting the tank, unless you can get a borescope up in there.
When it's warmed up and running crappy what happens when you ground the TS2 wire to the engine case? |
Its a standard beetle, so I can see the hoses pretty easy with the tire off. Anyway, problem SOLVED:
Dang TS2 connection seems to be bad. Thanks to your suggestion Busdaddy, I ran back there to ground out the TS2 wire while it was about to stall. As I was disconnection the lead, the idle suddenly corrected. I was able to re-create the low idle stumble/good idle multiple times by wiggling the spade connecter, which is by the way, very tight. I am thinking I will cut off the connectors and solder in new connectors unless some one has a better idea?
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'89 Westy - EJ25/22 Frank 4.44 5mt
'75 Miami Blue Sunroof FI Standard Bug |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 51153
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sat May 20, 2023 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread |
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Ahhh, standard beetle, makes sense now.
Good job on finding the issue!, solder should be OK, I wouldn't invest in the correct crimpers for just one terminal, unless you can find someone nearby who has a set and likes beer.
The only thing to think about is how far behind are some of the other connections in that harness?, or is it just that one because it's single and loose?
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Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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