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Official Fuel injection questions thread
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owdlvr
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

Okay, a new patient to consider. Car is a 1979 Beetle, completely stock including points. Not your usual internet forum "stock" either, this one is restored to be as it left the factory.

Starts up cold, no problem. Idles fine. Drives fine. On a cold day, you can drive all day without a problem. On warm days, its a gamble. On hot days, you know you're going to have an issue.

On a hot day you can drive the car for about 30-45min before it starts to stumble, and will die. You will not be able to get the car to restart. On a warm day, you can drive 2 hours plus without a problem, but as soon as you stop and shut the car off...it won't restart. If you wait 20-40min the car will fire back up, act as though it has no problem, and drive for an equal amount of time. On a hot day, this is 30-45min. On a warm day, until you shut the car off.

The will-not-start problem was non-existent five years ago, but has become progressively more common over the last three driving seasons. The car dying after 30-45min of driving on a hot day surfaced last summer, and continues this spring.

The patient vehicle is owned by my father, and we live on opposite sides of the country. It's only ever died on me once, but it's now at the point where Dad can't realistically trust the car to go anywhere. Power is seen a the fuel pump when it won't restart, but as I was actually starting one of my classic car adventures events at the time it died on me, I didn't get time to dive into the diagnosis further.

• Fuel pump is original german pump from 1979.
• Double relay has been replaced.
• Fuel lines are due for replacement due to age, but only out of caution for our ethanol fuels. They're still soft, pliable and (at least last Fall) when I pulled one and checked it, still good inside.

I think that is all the relevant details I can think of at the moment.

-Dave
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

Has he tried another TS2 (the sensor in the head above #4's rockerbox)?, it's always good to have a spare on board if it doesn't change the way it behaves.

Sounds like it's flooding itself, most likely due to a weak TS2, the parking lot hack would be to ground the wire that leads to the sensor when it's acting up and see if it starts (puts system in full lean mode).
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owdlvr
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Has he tried another TS2 (the sensor in the head above #4's rockerbox)?, it's always good to have a spare on board if it doesn't change the way it behaves.

Sounds like it's flooding itself, most likely due to a weak TS2, the parking lot hack would be to ground the wire that leads to the sensor when it's acting up and see if it starts (puts system in full lean mode).


He hasn't! Will send him out for a road-test!

-Dave
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Ithomson
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 7:43 am    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

How important is the exhaust temp sensor on a non-catalytic setup of a 1975-1979 FI beetle engine? They are getting hard to come by these days?
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:25 am    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

Ithomson wrote:
How important is the exhaust temp sensor on a non-catalytic setup of a 1975-1979 FI beetle engine? They are getting hard to come by these days?

Hmmm..., VW didn't use an oxygen sensor on L-jet in the beetle, at least for the North American market, maybe it's an Aus only thing?, is it connected to anything?

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=694380
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Ithomson
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Ithomson wrote:
How important is the exhaust temp sensor on a non-catalytic setup of a 1975-1979 FI beetle engine? They are getting hard to come by these days?

Hmmm..., VW didn't use an oxygen sensor on L-jet in the beetle, at least for the North American market, maybe it's an Aus only thing?, is it connected to anything?

It doesn’t look like an oxygen sensor, just a metal probe that seems to connect to the ECU from the exhaust. I think they describe it as a gas temperature switch for the AJ engine.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=694380
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 8:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

Ithomson wrote:
It doesn’t look like an oxygen sensor, just a metal probe that seems to connect to the ECU from the exhaust. I think they describe it as a gas temperature switch for the AJ engine.

Time to break out the camera, doesn't sound like something VW put there.
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Ithomson
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:47 am    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Ithomson wrote:
It doesn’t look like an oxygen sensor, just a metal probe that seems to connect to the ECU from the exhaust. I think they describe it as a gas temperature switch for the AJ engine.

Time to break out the camera, doesn't sound like something VW put there.


Okay - here goes.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.
[img]

It is the braided cable running from the cooling tin up to this connection which then drops back behind the shroud.

I found a schematic showing the sensor connecting to a catalytic converter on the California bugs, but my bug came with a sensor until it shredded off during a drive (wasn't connected to the new exhaust). My bug doesn't have a catalytic converter, so I am not too sure why it is needed.
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 6:55 am    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

Ithomson wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
Ithomson wrote:
It doesn’t look like an oxygen sensor, just a metal probe that seems to connect to the ECU from the exhaust. I think they describe it as a gas temperature switch for the AJ engine.

Time to break out the camera, doesn't sound like something VW put there.


Okay - here goes.

[pics]

It is the braided cable running from the cooling tin up to this connection which then drops back behind the shroud.

I found a schematic showing the sensor connecting to a catalytic converter on the California bugs, but my bug came with a sensor until it shredded off during a drive (wasn't connected to the new exhaust). My bug doesn't have a catalytic converter, so I am not too sure why it is needed.

Shocked OK, looks like VW did indeed put it there, never seen that before.
Since the wires are colored and the plug isn't a Bosch style I wonder if it's controlling a vacuum valve or something that isn't directly part of the FI?
Where do the wires from it lead to up front of the shroud?
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 10:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:

Where do the wires from it lead to up front of the shroud?


x2, please let us know!

Robbie
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cphipps79
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

I was considering upgrading to electronic ignition on my 75 FI. I have searched and hadn’t found someone that has done it and what they used. I am also having trouble finding the correct setup for the fuel injection, could anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks!!
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

Not many (if any) points conversion modules produce the correct waveform for the ECU to interpret, you are better off buying your points at NAPA (not Bosch) and checking/lubing them at each oil change.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Not many (if any) points conversion modules produce the correct waveform for the ECU to interpret, you are better off buying your points at NAPA (not Bosch) and checking/lubing them at each oil change.


Well that sucks haha. Let me ask this, is it possible to get the famous beetle chirp or “fweem” out of the FI exhaust? Or at all for that matter?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

cphipps79 wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
Not many (if any) points conversion modules produce the correct waveform for the ECU to interpret, you are better off buying your points at NAPA (not Bosch) and checking/lubing them at each oil change.


Well that sucks haha. Let me ask this, is it possible to get the famous beetle chirp or “fweem” out of the FI exhaust? Or at all for that matter?

More bad news, that sound comes from the tiny tailpipes and the perforated lining inside them, the better breathing FI exhaust system won't do that, unless maybe you lined the tailpipe with perforated metal.
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Cherry
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

I'm not sure if I'm asking in the right place I'm new here but here goes. I'm putting back together a 1975 beetle 1303 and running into a bit of difficulty with the fuel injection. Beetle is firing up but won't stay running ive tested intake air sensor and it testing OK I've checked fuel pump and pressure and all seems OK just doest seem to want to take off any help or ideas of what else to check is appreciated
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

Welcome!
This is the right place, but it's also OK if you start a dedicated thread for this resurrection project of yours to avoid cross contamination.

So it starts but quits seconds after releasing the key? Sounds like the AFM isn't closing the fuel pump contacts when it opens, maybe it's not opening due to a large vacuum leak? Does the fuel pump run when you poke the AFM flap through the inlet while the key is on?
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Welcome!
This is the right place, but it's also OK if you start a dedicated thread for this resurrection project of yours to avoid cross contamination.

So it starts but quits seconds after releasing the key? Sounds like the AFM isn't closing the fuel pump contacts when it opens, maybe it's not opening due to a large vacuum leak? Does the fuel pump run when you poke the AFM flap through the inlet while the key is on?


Yes it does. When it's firing the flap is fluttering constantly
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 4:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

Cherry wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
Welcome!
This is the right place, but it's also OK if you start a dedicated thread for this resurrection project of yours to avoid cross contamination.

So it starts but quits seconds after releasing the key? Sounds like the AFM isn't closing the fuel pump contacts when it opens, maybe it's not opening due to a large vacuum leak? Does the fuel pump run when you poke the AFM flap through the inlet while the key is on?


Yes it does. When it's firing the flap is fluttering constantly

A smoke test can't make it worse: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620083&highlight=smoke+tester you'll be suprised what shows up, and L-jet can't tolerate the tinyest leak.
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Cherry
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 3:38 am    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Cherry wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
Welcome!
This is the right place, but it's also OK if you start a dedicated thread for this resurrection project of yours to avoid cross contamination.

So it starts but quits seconds after releasing the key? Sounds like the AFM isn't closing the fuel pump contacts when it opens, maybe it's not opening due to a large vacuum leak? Does the fuel pump run when you poke the AFM flap through the inlet while the key is on?


Yes it does. When it's firing the flap is fluttering constantly

A smoke test can't make it worse: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620083&highlight=smoke+tester you'll be suprised what shows up, and L-jet can't tolerate the tinyest leak.


Thanks for that will give it a go in the few day
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Cherry
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 3:59 am    Post subject: Re: Official Fuel injection questions thread Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Cherry wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
Welcome!
This is the right place, but it's also OK if you start a dedicated thread for this resurrection project of yours to avoid cross contamination.

So it starts but quits seconds after releasing the key? Sounds like the AFM isn't closing the fuel pump contacts when it opens, maybe it's not opening due to a large vacuum leak? Does the fuel pump run when you poke the AFM flap through the inlet while the key is on?


Yes it does. When it's firing the flap is fluttering constantly

A smoke test can't make it worse: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620083&highlight=smoke+tester you'll be suprised what shows up, and L-jet can't tolerate the tinyest leak.



Thanks for your help it was a leak on a hose have replaced them and it's running good now
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