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?Waldo?
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2006
Posts: 9752
Location: Where?
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 Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:42 am Post subject: Re: New heater core, no heat |
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| Brassworks wrote: |
| Tip 2: Vanagons have direct outside air passing through the heater core. VW used a perforated plate (OEM Part 2512365329) to block off some outside airflow and permit a greater degree of recirculated cabin air. This does limit the defrosting capabilities but keeps your cabin warmer so keep the baffle. |
Hmmm...
| tencentlife wrote: |
...the free-swinging "forced air flaps" (called that in Bentley) are supposed to be slammed shut when the fan on high speed builds backpressure before the heater core. You can hear them shut when you switch the fan on high, especially when the van is parked or moving slowly. When I had my airbox apart this year I deduced that the baffle plate is there to build more backpressure to cause the flaps to close. Either the engineers miscalculated, or perhaps they changed their sourcing on cores for one that was more open to airflow later, but one or the other I believe necessitated the addition of the baffle plate.
I have proof, by the way: I left the plate out of my airbox, and now when the fan is switched on high the flaps can't be heard shutting. Because I wouldn't know what effect this would have on heating before I reassembled my dash, I added a simple mechanism that allows me to close them manually.
One thing is clear, removing the baffle plate delivers both more and hotter air. The difference in my heat delivery is like night and day. |
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loki475
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2005
Posts: 225
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 9:46 am Post subject: Re: New heater core, no heat |
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| Im just about to pull the dash again. I plan to shine a light into the heater core ports and see if its halves are sealed. Is the current core GW sells the "thermex" brand? I have what looks like the same one, but from the uk. It didn't have any brand markings anywhere. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:09 am Post subject: Re: New heater core, no heat |
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I ran tests on my setup and found the air was significantly hotter with the baffle plate removed. I haven't gotten to hear the door slamming in a long time at this point.
Lots of debate here:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=277650 |
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Gruppe B
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2007
Posts: 1331
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Slimvest
Samba Member
Joined: March 20, 2014
Posts: 431
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:28 am Post subject: Re: New heater core, no heat |
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I'm having PTSD reading this thread again. Oh, and a year later my used OEM core seems to be emitting that sweat smell of defeat now too... 
_________________
'87 GL w/ Reimo top |
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loki475
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2005
Posts: 225
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:51 am Post subject: Re: New heater core, no heat |
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Didn't pull the dash, after closer inspection of my OE core, I can't put it back in. The fins are crumbling away in the corners, too much corrosion. SO I'm going to leave the van together until I decide on a different core...
I wanted to figure out where this new heater core came from though so I checked the box it was packaged in. Wouldn't ya know, the manufacturer's sticker is removed. They tore it off in bits, leaving a quarter of it behind, but made sure the words are gone. All I can make out is "premium range"... ya right.
There was another sticker though with a part #, and it had a Brickwerks part # sticker placed on top of it  but the number underneath is visible: "VW Transporter Heater VW6128" I googled that and that's when I found a dead end, very strange. A few European sites and the name Prasco Heaters.
For those who are suggesting the Brassworks heater core, can you confirm they bleed themselves easily and have consistent heat? Cause at this point that's all I need to hear and its a done deal. I will not do more dash pulls anytime soon. Not that I don't enjoy it... Its kind of a zen practice in a way  |
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shagginwagon83
Samba Member
Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 3796
Location: VA/TN
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:54 am Post subject: Re: New heater core, no heat |
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I haven't installed my Brassworks yet. However I can provide some high quality photos if that would be helpful.
_________________
Brandon
"Jo Ann" - '83.5 Westfalia EJ22e w/Peloquin
Instagram @joannthevan |
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loki475
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2005
Posts: 225
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: New heater core, no heat |
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| Hey shagginwagon, one question actually, does the black paint have an odor? This "prasco" heater core came painted black and I'm not a fan of the smell it gives off. I know its probably temporary but I even pre-baked the core over my wood stove to try to cure the paint before installing it. |
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gbrandt
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 578
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:14 am Post subject: Re: New heater core, no heat |
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| crazyvwvanman wrote: |
I suggest a simple test.
Under the middle of the van locate the 2 heater hoses, to and from the front of the van.
Fully warm up the engine, leave engine running.
Turn the heat to full hot but leave the dash fan turned OFF.
Rev the engine for 1 minute.
Go under the van and feel both hoses to see how their temps compare.
The temps should be hot and similar.
If they are, turn the fan to speed 3.
Open the 2 slider levers that direct heat up and down.
Wait a couple minutes, go feel the hoses again.
Mark |
So the hoses get hot, too hot to touch. When heat is on full neither hose cools down. Seems like my heater core is short circuiting.
I also get 113f (45c) on the hoses when revving. Engine is at 195f (91c). Outside temp is 51f (11c). All measurements inside of van. Is that normal?
Gregor
_________________
'Lucky' our 1987 Red Westy, ASV 1.9 TDI ~130HP, Peloquin differential (had a GW 2.3 that we loved, but it died, we drove it hard!)
We've driven in 49 countries and 5 continents to date
Canada to Argentina and back, 2015 to 2017.
Canada to Europe and back (including Turkey, Morocco and Iceland), 2017 to 2019
Mexico 2022-2023
https://www.instagram.com/live.travel.play/
http://livetravelplay.ca |
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djkeev
Samba Moderator
Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 32598
Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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gbrandt
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 578
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:02 am Post subject: Re: New heater core, no heat |
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| djkeev wrote: |
Remember, the heater hoses run exposed and uninsulated the length of the Van.
Also, the core won't give up much heat if cold air isn't passing through it at an adequate rate,
Dave |
I may try and find insulators here in Turkey.
I have lots of airflow over the core.
Gregor
_________________
'Lucky' our 1987 Red Westy, ASV 1.9 TDI ~130HP, Peloquin differential (had a GW 2.3 that we loved, but it died, we drove it hard!)
We've driven in 49 countries and 5 continents to date
Canada to Argentina and back, 2015 to 2017.
Canada to Europe and back (including Turkey, Morocco and Iceland), 2017 to 2019
Mexico 2022-2023
https://www.instagram.com/live.travel.play/
http://livetravelplay.ca |
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DanHoug
Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 4777
Location: Bemidji, MN
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 5:34 am Post subject: Re: New heater core, no heat |
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| shagginwagon83 wrote: |
| I haven't installed my Brassworks yet. However I can provide some high quality photos if that would be helpful. |
yes,please!! see if you can get a shot straight down the ports too. and a close of the fins with maybe a ruler in the shot. very jralous!
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.
'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd
Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:26 am Post subject: Re: New heater core, no heat |
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| gbrandt wrote: |
I also get 113f (45c) on the hoses when revving. Engine is at 195f (91c). Outside temp is 51f (11c). All measurements inside of van. Is that normal?
Gregor |
I would say that your temperatures are not normal. |
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gbrandt
Samba Member
Joined: April 04, 2006
Posts: 578
Location: Calgary
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:31 am Post subject: Re: New heater core, no heat |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| gbrandt wrote: |
I also get 113f (45c) on the hoses when revving. Engine is at 195f (91c). Outside temp is 51f (11c). All measurements inside of van. Is that normal?
Gregor |
I would say that your temperatures are not normal. |
So what could cause that low a temperature?
_________________
'Lucky' our 1987 Red Westy, ASV 1.9 TDI ~130HP, Peloquin differential (had a GW 2.3 that we loved, but it died, we drove it hard!)
We've driven in 49 countries and 5 continents to date
Canada to Argentina and back, 2015 to 2017.
Canada to Europe and back (including Turkey, Morocco and Iceland), 2017 to 2019
Mexico 2022-2023
https://www.instagram.com/live.travel.play/
http://livetravelplay.ca |
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tencentlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10078
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: New heater core, no heat |
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| ?Waldo? wrote: |
| Brassworks wrote: |
| Tip 2: Vanagons have direct outside air passing through the heater core. VW used a perforated plate (OEM Part 2512365329) to block off some outside airflow and permit a greater degree of recirculated cabin air. This does limit the defrosting capabilities but keeps your cabin warmer so keep the baffle. |
Hmmm...
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It's a shame that most of what you read on the web, however well-intentioned, is wrong and therefore worse than saying nothing at all. Now most folks who go there will think that's useful info and will be forevermore just as wrong as the guys who thought they were doing you a favor.
| Brassworks wrote: |
VW used a perforated plate (OEM Part 2512365329) to block off some outside airflow and permit a greater degree of recirculated cabin air.
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The perf plate on the heater cores merely limits air flow rate thru the core, all that air comes from the outside either way. There is no recirculating cabin air in a Vanagon heater box as-built.
| Brassworks wrote: |
Tip 4: The rear heater would originally have had a restrictor to limit coolant flow through the rear heater and force additional coolant through the front heater. If "someone" removes this restrictor you may have limited flow through the front heater especially at idle. Test this possibility by pinching off the hose to the rear heater. If the heat rises in the front you'll know why.
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This much is correct as far as it goes, but you can limit flow thru the rear core with the valve if you find that fully open it's starving the front core of flow volume. I doubt that would be a problem except at idle.
| Brassworks wrote: |
Tip 5: Coolant fluid must be clean and your heater core must pass coolant. If its clogged you will have trouble heating anything. The heater circuit is in the head, and coolant flows through the heater core(s) and then feeds back to the thermostat. If there is little or no coolant flow through the heater circuit, the thermostat won't open when it is supposed to. If you have been driving for a while the engine gets warm enough to open the thermostat and you will have aqequate heat. If you however come to a stop the flow through the heater circuit can stop and the thermostat is fed a very cold shot of coolant coming straight from the radiator. With no warm coolant from the heater circuit to mix with the cold coolant from the radiator, the thermostat almost instantly closes. If you return to speed the thermostat may remain closed or partially cloased and the heat in the cabin drops . Eventually the engine heats up enough at the thermostat to allow it to open again. All this aggravation from restricted flow through the heater core
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They also claim above the heater circuit return flow signals the engine t-stat, which is also wrong. To do that would be very detrimental to engine temp regulation, because heater return temp is highly variable and subject to how much heat the occupants are using, or has no flow at all if the heater valves are closed. The system they purport to describe is crazy and I'm not aware of any OEM cooling system that's configured that way, as I said, it wouldn't work for shit if it was.
Engine water-cooling systems almost universally signal the t-stat with coolant just exiting a cylinder head, that's the only coolant-sampling location that offers a consistent reflection of cylinder head temp. Even aircooled systems put their thermostat in the airflow just leaving a cylinder head. That's a no-brainer.
In wbx cooling systems the heater feed is direct from the right head in 1.9's at all times and in 2.1's during warmup, and from both heads combined in 2.1's when the t-stat opens, so the hottest coolant is available the soonest for cabin heating and especially defrosting.
In both systems the heater circuit return is downstream of the t-stat, so it has zero effect on t-stat operation. Like most engine cooling systems, the t-stat blocks return flow from the radiator when cold, and opens gradually to cut colder coolant into the hot flow emerging from the head, which is what's heating the t-stat element, so the notion that a cold slug from the radiator would shut the t-stat is also absurd.
And as to filling the Vanagon heater cores: They are entirely self-purging when the control valves are open, the water pump is turning, and there is sufficient liquid in the system not to starve the water pump.
If you want to specifically ensure both your heater cores are purged, then open first the front valve, rear valve closed, start the engine cold and raise the revs to about 2k for 10-15 seconds. The front core will be purged. Now reverse the valve states (front closed, rear open) and do the same. You can get both done well before the engine warms enough that the t-stat starts to open. When the t-stat is closed the greatest share of the pump flow volume is available to flow thru the heater circuit so it will fill and purge all air very quickly. The system is actually quite capable of doing this on its own without this song and dance, doing this is just the brute force way of making sure, for those who believe it won't.
_________________
Shop for unique Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is kryptonite to doctrine. |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50338
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 4:20 pm Post subject: Re: New heater core, no heat |
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| gbrandt wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| gbrandt wrote: |
I also get 113f (45c) on the hoses when revving. Engine is at 195f (91c). Outside temp is 51f (11c). All measurements inside of van. Is that normal?
Gregor |
I would say that your temperatures are not normal. |
So what could cause that low a temperature? |
The return hose should be cooler than the feed hose if water is flowing through the heater core and being cooled by the air passing through, the heater blower needs to be running to make this happen.
If the water in being internally bypassed in the tank then the feed and return hose would be very close to the same temperature.
As far as the low temperature, I just assumed it was due to the insulating quality of the hose and that the water inside was closer to the block temperature. If the water is actually cooler than I can't tell you why. |
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loki475
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2005
Posts: 225
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:07 pm Post subject: Re: New heater core, no heat |
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| From what I can tell I'd say this heater core is bypassing at idle and flowing poorly at even 3k rpm. Both the feed and return hoses feel equally hot but poor heat while driving and basically no heat at idle. I ordered a brassworks core anyways. No messin around for me, its about to get very cold up here. |
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Paulbeard
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2015
Posts: 2604
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2019 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: New heater core, no heat |
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The one I just put in from Van Café works great. Tons o' heat…
And thanks to resident guru tencentlife for the primer on burping the baby…
_________________
Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs
— dhaavers |
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shagginwagon83
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Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 3796
Location: VA/TN
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loki475
Samba Member
Joined: April 18, 2005
Posts: 225
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2019 12:59 pm Post subject: Re: New heater core, no heat |
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I'm not all that happy with the brassworks core.
You can see the OE vw core here is 100% sealed inlet from outlet.
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