Dry or oiled rings for break in? Current logic?

[mattcfish]

The new approach to breaking in BMW airhead motorcycles is to install the rings without oil in dry cylinders. The only oil used is a dab on each skirt. This is in the official BMW manual and applies to iron and/or Nikasil lined cylinders. Supposedly this does a better job at setting the rings.
Is this being done on VW's? I know the piston manufacturers all say to oil the rings and cylinders, but what do they care about oil burning, they just don't want any returns. I just want to know what the current logic is? What oil to use for break in, and how hard to drive it? I know some recommend a heavy throttle technique. How long before you can take an extended drive on the freeway?
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71 Bay Window
75 BMW 2002
76 BMW R90S
85 Vanagon with 2.2L upgrade

[Vango Conversions]

Lots of different theories here. I rebuilt my own Subaru engine in NY and drove it to Seattle a few days later and I only burned about 1/2 quart of oil in 3600 miles so I know my method worked fine and that after doing it you can take it on the freeway without doing any damage.

I put my engine together using Lucas as an assembly lube on the cylinders (just a light coat), I mostly did this because in the past I've had freshly honed cylinders rust when usind WD40 or light weight oil and I know Lucas/hyperlube is stickier and stays around longer to prevent rust.

Once I had the engine running, I made sure all the air was out of the radiator and let it warn up at an idle while this was happening. Once it was warm, I BEAT THE HELL OUT OF IT! well kind of, I put it in second (automatic) and floored it up to 5,500 rpm then took my foot off the gas and let the engine slow the van down to about 15 MPH and then did this again for 5 or 6 times, then I CHANGED THE OIL, then I refilled it and drove it around at varying speeds for 150 miles or so and changed it again. Then I hit the highway and at the end of my 3600 mile trip the oil wasn't even dark yet so I'm sure the rings were sealed properly.

So I would oil the rings, regular engine oil is fine but I used Lucas and it worked fine as well. I just used cheap conventional oil (5w30 in my case, maybe 10w40 for a fresh VW) for the first 5000 miles or so to make sure everything is broken in, then you can continue to use conventional oil or switch to synthetic if you feel the need.

I'm sure others have different techniques and in reality most techniques will work fine but I think most will agree that you should oil the cylinders/pistons/rings.

[MarkWard]

I have always installed the rings dry, but put a film of assembly lube on the cylinder wall. Currently using Royal Purple assembly lube. Building an engine often requires turning the engine through by hand and eventually the starter before oil sees the cylinder walls. I am more comfortable with the assembly lube on the cylinder walls during this time over dry.

For break-in we use this product. http://www.bradpennracing.com/Products/High-Performance/Break-In-Oil.aspx
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[Vango Conversions]

If this is for a WBX engine make sure to properly break in the cam/lifters before worrying about the rings. Generally a push rod engine requires 1500-2000 RPM for 10 to 20 minutes to get the lifters spinning otherwise you'll get a flat cam lobe or two. I don't know about the WBX specifically but I'm sure it needs something like this.

Also, if you don't want to oil the cylinders/rings, at least squirt some WD40 or other light oil on the cylinders. You need SOMETHING.

[Vanagon Nut]

The engine in question is a VW inline 4 gas engine with new pistons, rings, bearings. Bores were honed only. The used head has new valve seals only.

Which oil is best for helping new rings seat to a freshly honed bore?

30 weight or a multi grade oil?

These articles for older classic motorcylcle engines:

https://jrcengineering.com/portfolio-view/piston-ring-problems/

http://www.ntnoa.org/enginebreakin.htm

suggest using straight 30 weight oil but I also see articles for car engines suggesting to use a 10-30 oil. All articles I've read say do NOT use a synthetic oil.

The ambient temps have been mild recently. If ambient temps are cool, say 40's F, would a 30 weight oil in a rebuilt engine run the risk of raising oil pressure too high?


Thanks

Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA

1988 West DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN

[IdahoDoug]

On my WBX, I called the company that made the rings and asked them. They asked me what procedure on the cylinders (ball honing)and what grit and said just a film of dino oil that you're using for startup. So, I put a film on the cylinder walls and lubed the ring compressor tool with a little more so I would not have a ring snag on its way being tapped into the cylinder.

Floor it a few times, then coast down a hill with high RPM a few times (helps mash the rings against the walls) and the deed is done. No synthetics, no babying.

Crucial list:

• Perfect cleaning of the cylinder walls. I got sage advice here to clean the crap out of them with Bon Ami and the hottest water I could stand then check with a white cloth. Repeat until the cloth literally has nothing on it with a determined cylinder wall wipe. I was warned this may take up to 10 cycles, and they were correct and well informed.

• Check the end gap of the rings pushed down into the cylinders at top, bottom and middle of the cylinder.

• Perfect cleaning of the ring lands on the pistons. Leave a fleck of carbon in a corner? It's gonna tweak the ring slightly instead of it riding square to the cylinder wall.

My engine runs fantastic and I have not detected any oil consumption.
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1987 2WD Wolfsburg Vanagon Weekender "Mango", two fully locked 80 Series LandCruisers. 2017 Subaru Outback boxer. 1990 Audi 90 Quattro 20V with rear locking differential, 1990 burgundy parts Vanagon. 1984 Porsche 944, 1988 Toyota Supra 5 speed targa, 2002 BMW 325iX, 1982 Toyota Sunrader

[MarkWard]

Neil synthetics are out till the first 1000 miles anyhow. I would use the cheapest brand x multi grade dino oil you can find. You have two main things that need to happen. You need the rings to seat and you want to avoid damaging a new cam and followers, but it sounds like you are reusing the cam and followers. I linked to what we use on rebuilt engines above. It has the extra zinc to prevent damage to the new cams and followers during cam break in. I think the Brad Penn break in oil would be a waste of money for you. Once you have it running, let it idle at 2500 till the fan cycles on, then shut it down and let it cool. Look for leaks oil, coolant and fuel. If no leaks are present, time to hit the road and drive it like you stole it. Lots of hard acceleration followed with hard deceleration. Avoid highway constant rpms during the break in period. This will work the rings in. 500 - 1000 miles change oil and filter and you are ready to hit the highway. Good luck. Always fun breathing life into a new engine. mark
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[Vanagon Nut]

Thanks IdahoDoug and MarkWard.

Yes. Head is used; it c/w the engine.

Ok. Well, hopefully the machine shop properly cleaned the bores after honing them. It's been over a year since I assembled the block/head so don't recall but I may have cleaned the bores after machine work was done but certainly not more than once. I hope that doesn't bite me in the butt.

Assuming this engine even fires (I've done some major wiring harness work etc etc), I now know what oil to use and what to do. A few more wires, flush out remaining old coolant, fill fluids, fill oil filter, prime oil system and a test firing should happen soon.

Crossing my fingers.....

Neil.

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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA

1988 West DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN

[MarkWard]

You should be able to wipe a clean white rag on a clean cylinder wall and it comes out as clean as it went in.

If you didn't get it clean enough, I have seen grit jam the pressure relief valve in the oil pump after some use. I think you will be fine though.
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[Vanagon Nut]

a few images of bores after I got block back from machine shop.

The flaw seen has been discussed in another topic but these images may shed light on cleanliness?

Anyhow. All moot for now.

close up of same

another bore

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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA

1988 West DIY 50º ABA

VE7TBN

[Vanagon Nut]

[DanHoug]

i did a bunch of research and used Total Seal's 'Quickseat'. worked well and there's very few negative experiences with it.

https://vwparts.aircooled.net/Quick-Seat-Piston-Ring-Assembly-Lubricant-p/quickseat.htm

-dan

[scubaseas]

[djkeev]

Really?
What's it matter?
The engine is designed to lubricate the cylinder walls so if you started with lubricant or not within a few seconds it is dripping with oil.

Dave
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[Zeitgeist 13]

I think this is a tomayto tomahto kind of distinction. I've always built engines with a light coating of straight weight oil, and have never had a problem getting the rings to seat. The ABA in question begs to be flogged like a rented mule, so I doubt there's any reason for concern with either approach.
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Casey--

'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik?

[Wildthings]

The present engine in my Bar Window Transporter, a 1800 Type 4 has extreme taper to the cylinders. It is an engine out of a 412 that has probably never been fully apart. I have pulled it down far enough to put new rings in it and bar honed the cylinders to get rid of most of the ridge at the top of the cylinder travel. I just used cheap Walmart 0w30 oil for the initial startup as I want all the oil to be passing through the filter as soon as possible after cranking was initiated. A thicker oil will bypass the filter longer than a thin oil, so thin oil it was. I have been running this engine for three years at this point in time and have had zero oil usage. With the cylinder taper this engine has, about 0.015", if any engine is going to have cylinder sealing problems this one should.

Prior to installing the engine, I overfilled the sump and then picked each cylinder bank up in turn flooding the cylinders of the opposite bank with oil. I had also added a part of the oil to the sump by filling the galleys through the port for the oil pressure gauge. Once installed in the car I loosened the filter and cranked the engine until oil ran down the sides of the filter verifying that the oil pump was primed and then tightened the filter and fired it up. I ran it for 20 minutes to work harden the lifters which I had refaced, changed the oil and put her in normal service for a few days and then hit the road for a 1300 mile run over a two day period running hard the whole way.

As DJkeev says, very shortly after startup the cylinders as going to be getting well lubed anyway so a dry start is ephemeral, lasting just for a very few revolutions.

[Aryana]

Dry. I only put a small about of molybdenum disulfide oil on the piston skirts.

When the engine is started, after 30 seconds with no leaks or other catastrophe, I begin driving to warm it up.

5 min later I’m at a piece of road where I can go full throttle all the way to red line rpm in a couple gears.

Then pull off and slow operation for 30-60 seconds.

I repeat that cycle 3-4 times consecutively. You have one chance, and a short time window to seal your rings to the bore or you will have less power and/or burn oil.

Doesn’t matter if it’s a car, van, motorcycle, or airplane engine. This works.

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

[Vanagon Nut]

[Vanagon Nut]

[?Waldo?]

I would not recommend staying at full throttle for more than 3 seconds without letting off the pedal entirely for longer than that. With freshly honed cylinders and the high friction that results, it is fairly easy to overheat the rings, cause them to lose their temper, and have them never seal at all. While I agree that babying the engine for the break-in period is unwise, so is full-throttling it for any extended period of time. It is a balancing act.