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1997 Mexican Water Cooled Bus
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pawleyk
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:19 pm    Post subject: 1997 Mexican Water Cooled Bus Reply with quote

Hey guys,

I'm new to the forum and to VW's. My wife and I are currently driving from Oregon to Argentina in our Chevy truck. We've met a very nice German couple and have started travelling together, but they're having issues with their super sweet VW.

It is a 1997 Brazilian made, Mexican, bay-window panel van. It has a 1.8L 4cyl, SOHC, water cooled engine and I'm pretty sure they've blown a head gasket.

We're currently "camping" in an Autozone parking lot in Mazatlan Mexico. We were able to find the head gasket for the bus, but I'm still not sure which engine it actually is. I'm trying to find torque specs and preferably instructions for removing and replacing the head, but it's pretty tough to find info when referencing the van.

I'm just hoping somebody can point me in the right direction for specs and info on the motor they put in these things. Is it the one they put in the Jettas? Would it be the 8V 1.8? Like I said, I'm not really familiar with VW's at all, but after seeing the other "repairs" that have been done on the van here in Mexico we decided to do the work ourselves. I'm a fairly experienced mechanic and pretty well equipped for tools.

Thanks!
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pawleyk
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:47 pm    Post subject: Re: 1997 Mexican Water Cooled Bus Reply with quote

That's where the engine is, right?


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Dana Champion
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:57 pm    Post subject: Re: 1997 Mexican Water Cooled Bus Reply with quote

Have you checked with a VW Dealership ?
I was working and living in Baja in '95, at the tip, in San José del Cabo. We rented a few new VW busses, and I had the privelidge to drive them. To my knowledge, they were powered with Jetta engines, and were made in Mexico, I think?. I even picked up a sales brochure from a dealer. It's in Spanish. I would think that a VW dealership should be able to answer your questions, since they sold them new. ? I would think that a '97 would be similar to a '95 ?
Good luck with it, and I hope you enjoy your trip!
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:12 pm    Post subject: Re: 1997 Mexican Water Cooled Bus Reply with quote

I haven't a clue if all Mexican and Brazilian buses used the same sized water cooled engines. If they did that would kind of go against the way VW seemed to spec their rigs over the years. Crying or Very sad
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tristessa
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 9:46 pm    Post subject: Re: 1997 Mexican Water Cooled Bus Reply with quote

It's a 1.8 8V engine, essentially same as Jetta, Golf, Scirocco so use the torque specs and torquing pattern for those cars. Get new head bolts to go with the gasket, they're stretch bolts and shouldn't be re-used. Timing belt wouldn't be a bad idea since it has to come off anyway.

You can remove the head with the manifolds attached and the cam installed. Watch out for the "hidden" bolt attaching the inner timing belt cover to the head. Head bolts are 10MM triple-square/XZN drive, not the most common tool but shouldn't be that hard to find either.

If the head gasket blew because the motor overheated, the head is likely to be warped .. been there done that.

Mexican-market watercooled Bus 1988-2001 was the 1.8L EA827 engine (same series as Rabbit/Golf/Jetta/Scirocco/etc), Brazilian watercooled Bus 2006-2013 was the 1.4L EA111 TotalFlex engine.

Hope this helps.
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timvw7476
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 10:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 1997 Mexican Water Cooled Bus Reply with quote

if it is the 8V 1.8, you might need a good sized phillips screw driver & vise
grip to manage the spring steel "C" clamps at the exhaust manifold to
down pipe-there's a VW # tool to spread them, but a healthy sized driver
& cursing work as well. Safety glasses/goggles-those things fly.
EDIT: that engine isn't known to blow head gaskets, so if you have it apart,
check the water pump impeller,(that it's not corroded away to nothing),
and the thermostat, (same housing, make sure it isn't frozen closed)
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vwwestyman
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 6:04 am    Post subject: Re: 1997 Mexican Water Cooled Bus Reply with quote

tristessa wrote:
It's a 1.8 8V engine, essentially same as Jetta, Golf, Scirocco so use the torque specs and torquing pattern for those cars. Get new head bolts to go with the gasket, they're stretch bolts and shouldn't be re-used. Timing belt wouldn't be a bad idea since it has to come off anyway.

You can remove the head with the manifolds attached and the cam installed. Watch out for the "hidden" bolt attaching the inner timing belt cover to the head. Head bolts are 10MM triple-square/XZN drive, not the most common tool but shouldn't be that hard to find either.

If the head gasket blew because the motor overheated, the head is likely to be warped .. been there done that.

Mexican-market watercooled Bus 1988-2001 was the 1.8L EA827 engine (same series as Rabbit/Golf/Jetta/Scirocco/etc), Brazilian watercooled Bus 2006-2013 was the 1.4L EA111 TotalFlex engine.

Hope this helps.


Tristessa beat me.

On some engines, I believe there are two "hidden" bolts, on either side of the head, holding the metal timing belt backing "plate" to the head. I always forget that one at first!

As was said, it would be a good idea to do the timing belt and associated parts (tensioners, rollers, water pump) along with this since it all has to come apart, unless they know the parts are fairly new.

BTW, what makes them think the head gasket is leaking?
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pawleyk
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: 1997 Mexican Water Cooled Bus Reply with quote

Thanks for all the help guys, this is awesome!

We're nicely located next to Wal-mart, Autozone, Napa (First I've seen in Mexico) and an actual VW dealer so if there's a chance for success, we've got it.

We'll hunt down head bolts and probably a water pump. The head gasket has already been replaced once, by a dirt-lot mechanic who ended up stealing a bunch of their stuff. My friend says they definitely used the old head bolts, even though the head was warped from overheating.

This time was also an overheat. The crappy wiring wiggled loose (we already tracked that down) and the fan stopped kicking on while grinding uphill in the Mexican desert.

The thing started losing coolant (I was behind them) and we pulled over and shut it down right away. We let it cool down and everything looked ok.

We started it and it started and ran perfectly (well, as perfectly as it did before) so we just figured it boiled over and everything would be fine since we shut it down immediately.

We shut it off again to let it cool completely and give it one last check over...but... when they went to start it again the motor wouldn't turn with the starter. Shocked

We (stupidly) push started it thinking maybe the starter just got bound up somehow. Afterall, it started and ran just fine minutes before.

It started right up with the push start but immediately started running terrible, and pouring clouds of white, sweet smelling smoke out the exhaust. I called him on the radio and had him shut it down immediately. We checked the oil and it definitely has coolant in it. Milky gunk all over the dipstick.

We let it cool completely (while we walked though a tiny Mexican village to find the "comisar" to ask where we could camp for the night) and then checked the coolant and there is brown rusty gunk on the cap.

I've never blown a head gasket before, but from everything I've always been told and read that's my best guess. The engine does turn over easily with the starter (it's not seized) but we haven't started it since we found water in the oil.

We flat towed it with a 15' strap about 60 miles through mountains, little towns, and then Mazatlan traffic. And now here we are. There was a beautiful sunset over the bus depot behind us last night..

I can't say how thankful I am to you guys for the tips and knowledge. I had finally narrowed down which motor I "thought" it had, but its really nice to get a confirmation. All the tips on the fasteners and hidden bolts are gold. I know how long you can fight with stuff like that.
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Cap10323
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:33 am    Post subject: Re: 1997 Mexican Water Cooled Bus Reply with quote

So what I am seeing is this.

The head gasket failed, Coolant filled up the cylinders, and the engine hydrolocked.

The starter obviously wouldn't turn a hydrolocked engine, so you push started it, it managed to overcome being filled with water and started, blowing all the water out of the exhaust in the process.

Not to be dire, But you may have done very serious engine damage. Water is a noncompressable mass, Meaning you can easily bend connecting rods, crack pistons, etc when you try to compress it in an engine.

Honestly, at this point you need to take the engine out of the bus, break it down, and see if there's any serious internal damage before you can even think about replacing the headgasket.

Also, No offense to you in the slightest (You seem like a very helpful person) but I think both of you are out of your league. Tow the Bus over to the VW dealer nextdoor and let them tear it apart.
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Last edited by Cap10323 on Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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pawleyk
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: 1997 Mexican Water Cooled Bus Reply with quote

Awesome. I'm an idiot.

I figured it couldn't be hydro-locked since it started and ran fine just after overheating and before the starter "locked" up.

It must have had a small leak in the head gasket after overheating that slowly filled a cylinder while we checked things over, then we blew a much larger hole when we roll started the thing..
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:36 am    Post subject: Re: 1997 Mexican Water Cooled Bus Reply with quote

pawleyk wrote:


It must have had a small leak in the head gasket after overheating that slowly filled a cylinder while we checked things over, then we blew a much larger hole when we roll started the thing..


Bingo.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: 1997 Mexican Water Cooled Bus Reply with quote

I don't know... It seems to me that if it was hydrolocked you wouldn't have gotten it started.

Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I wouldn't start thinking that grimly just yet.

Those 1.8 motors are supposed to be pretty bullet proof.

I think if it were me, I'd probably avoid feelings of despair at this point in the game. Maybe the water pushed out through the head gasket. Or maybe it really was an issue with the starter.

Does it run fairly smoothly besides the clouds of antifreeze smoke?

I think I'd pull the head and give it a good inspection. If you don't see any signs of internal damage at that point, I'd put a good head on (so not warped, whether that is a new one or have this one rebuilt/flattened) and see how it runs then.

Seems like you could have an idea whether a rod was bent if one piston didn't move up in the bore as far as the other three when turning the engine over by hand with the head off.
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: 1997 Mexican Water Cooled Bus Reply with quote

Cap10323 wrote:
The head gasket failed, Coolant filled up the cylinders, and the engine hydrolocked.

The starter obviously wouldn't turn a hydrolocked engine, so you push started it,

Been there done that, minus the push starting step. Got another 6 months out of that bottom end before it developed rod knock, at which point I threw another used short block in (head was fine) and got five years. Still ran good when I yanked it out for an AEB 1.8t swap...
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:39 pm    Post subject: Re: 1997 Mexican Water Cooled Bus Reply with quote

Maybe I'm needlessly pessimistic.

Do what vwwestyman says and at least measure the piston travel with a vernier gauge and make sure you don't have a bent rod before just bolting a reman head and new gasket on there. I'd hate for you to go through all that trouble just to throw a rod a couple hundred miles later.
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pawleyk
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:23 pm    Post subject: Re: 1997 Mexican Water Cooled Bus Reply with quote

Ok, so we got the head off and the gasket was definitely blown.

It turns out they already had to replace a head gasket, have the head machined, and the rings a few hundred miles ago. They broke down in a little Mexican town and had a dirt-lot mechanic do the repairs. My friend doesn't know much about cars (lots more now.. we're learning tons) so didn't argue when the mechanic did some things he probably shouldn't have.

The rest of the story is that the mechanic scored the new head gasket somehow while installing it. Right where it blew out. He also didn't use a torque wrench, or new head bolts. He also stole a bunch of stuff from their van.

Everything turns smoothly by hand and the head is not warped. The pistons all stop in the same places in their strokes. Nothing is scored or burned.

I'm hoping the mechanic's incompetence saved us from our own by allowing the coolant in that cylinder to easily blow out the gasket where is was already weakened when we roll started the van. That is definitely what it looks like anyway.

The van did seem to run ok. No clunking or clattering, only the sputtering you'd expect if it was running on 3 cylinders and trying to ignite coolant.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: 1997 Mexican Water Cooled Bus Reply with quote

Jesus fucking Christ, Well there's the problem alright. Shocked

I think you're completely right when you assumed that it probably just forced the water back into the block through that massive tear thus not ruining the engine. I will admit I've never even seen an engine with a head gasket that badly blown, Typically it's a small split, thus causing the cylinder to fill with water while it's parked and then bending rods as soon as it starts.

I'd say they dodged a pretty massive bullet. Thanks to the crushing incompetence of that hackjob mechanic.

Also.. Did he RTV the head gasket in place??
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: 1997 Mexican Water Cooled Bus Reply with quote

That gasket doesn't have a new look to it at all. Sure the guy just didn't reuse the old gasket?
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 2:22 pm    Post subject: Re: 1997 Mexican Water Cooled Bus Reply with quote

Pawleyk

A bit of context for you on this thread


You will catch some flak from the grumpies here because there is an annoying history of folks joining up and then begging for help after they have dug themselves into a deep hole on a fantasy journey with no resources, money, or willingness to contribute.

I acknowledge you are NOT in this camp by the simple fact that you have stopped to help a fellow traveller in distress. Good on you.



The worst offender here pan-handled help from multiple people on this forum while traveling on a self-indulgent trip,breaking down like clockwork every week.

Grumpy Abscate
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pawleyk
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 3:51 pm    Post subject: Re: 1997 Mexican Water Cooled Bus Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
Pawleyk

A bit of context for you on this thread


You will catch some flak from the grumpies here because there is an annoying history of folks joining up and then begging for help after they have dug themselves into a deep hole on a fantasy journey with no resources, money, or willingness to contribute.

I acknowledge you are NOT in this camp by the simple fact that you have stopped to help a fellow traveller in distress. Good on you.



The worst offender here pan-handled help from multiple people on this forum while traveling on a self-indulgent trip,breaking down like clockwork every week.

Grumpy Abscate


I get it. I'm a pretty active member on lots of other forums and it's very common to have people ask questions that can be answered by simple searches and a little research.

I tried to find out everything I could before asking for help, but I want to make sure we do things right. The relative obscurity of a 70's air-cooled van built in 1997 with a water cooled engine made finding info a lot tougher than usual. I really really appreciate the feedback and advice we've gotten on this thread.

I also tried to convince Peter (our friend) to take it to a mechanic or the VW dealer, but he's been burned so many times by mechanics here in Mexico he'd rather take his chances with doing it ourselves.

I'll try and share everything we learn with our project and I'll try to get him to join up and keep sharing and contributing.

I'm not running down Mexico, btw, we've been here for months and love the country and the people. We've just had tons of trouble with unreliable mechanics.

I have a guess for who you're talking about. I watched a lot of YouTube before setting out on our own Pan American adventure.. Those videos were a huge factor in me choosing to drive my Chevy truck South... Smile

Right now we're trying to track down head bolts. None of the nice, new places have them. Not even the VW dealer. They just treated us like we were nuts... Peter might have made a good call avoiding them. We're headed downtown to ask around at the little shops. They're very good and everyone there is usually very helpful, finding the right thing is just outrageously time consuming..

Looks like we'll be in the AutoZone parking lot another night or two. At least we're close to the Wal-Mart. They have some decent beer there.
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pawleyk
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: 1997 Mexican Water Cooled Bus Reply with quote

As a side note, just for extra fun, it had an engine fire at one point and someone ripped out the fuel injection and replaced it with a carb. The resulting wiring was patched and repaired in a way that I can only really describe as a cluster &^%$. We're talking jumper wires jammed into relays, hot wires that just dead end with no protection, and bare wires simply wrapped together with no tape or connectors of any kind.

We were actually having really good luck tracking the wires down and cleaning everything up when the whole overheat/blown head gasket episode went down.
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