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Tin Top A/C Rebuild Experience
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dart330
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:15 am    Post subject: Tin Top A/C Rebuild Experience Reply with quote

There has been tons of discussion on A/C rebuilds over the last year here, so I thought I would share my experience. After reading through all of the super long threads I found that most of the information was geared towards Westys and using alternative refrigerants. I was convinced to stick with R-12, but then I found out Sanden no longer makes R-12 compressors and I only found one local shop that even still had R-12 equipment.

So where does that leave the weekend warrior who doesn't want to have a system that no shop will touch while on a road trip?
R134a was the solution for me and I decided to rebuild the entire system. New hoses, condenser, drier, and expansion valve.

I had read a lot about switching to a modern parallel flow condenser, and luckily GoWesty has put together a mounting kit for the model everyone on here recommends getting.
http://www.gowesty.com/product-details.php?id=24380
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Everything else I got from the Van-Cafe. Here is a picture of the new compressor they provide.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The process was pretty straightforward, first was to remove the system from the vehicle. Started at the front inside and disassembled all of the plastic. Everything can come out except the evaporator housing which is held in place with 6 bolts.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I had a neighbor bring over a portable support stand that we used to support the evaporator while we lowered it down.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rockwell-JawStand-RK9033/202791027
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


From there I removed all the hoses, taking lots of pictures of how they were routed.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Then lowered the radiator to replace the condenser. Did not have to open up the coolant system.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


From there I took the hoses to an AC shop to be rebuilt. They charged me $42 labor and $133 in parts, $186 out the door. Then installed the new hoses, connected them up to all the new parts, and reassembling everything using the pictures I took during disassembly.

One major issue I ran into was the hole on the back side of the compressor for the small hose was too large. We ended up swapping the back cover from the old compressor to the new one to ensure a proper fit.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The other thing is the high and low R-12 ports don't fit R143a machines, so you need to get adapters installed. I did not see this mentioned in any of the threads, but I might have just overlooked it.

After everything was hooked back up I took it to a local shop and had them charge the system up. I am really happy with the results and it will freeze you out.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Last thing to do is to create a filter for the air intake at the back of the evaporator housing. Will have more on that after I figure out what I want to do.

Hopefully this helps those of you on the fence about tackling this project yourself. It wasn't nearly as bad as I expected and going with r134a made the project much easier. I didn't even need to buy any special tools. Sorry I didn't take more pictures, but it is pretty straightforward once you get going.


Last edited by dart330 on Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Tin Top AC Rebuild Experience Reply with quote

Glad you got it fixed but is not the only real difference between the tin top and camper the Evaporator mounting and vents?

If so, you didn't even touch upon this significant difference.

Yours is obviously newer than many that have been previously well documented too.

Most people with poor or no A/C shy away from proper repairs because it quite simply isn't cheap $$$.
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dart330
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:10 pm    Post subject: Re: Tin Top A/C Rebuild Experience Reply with quote

I did not intend this to be a full how-to thread, just sharing my experience. I don't have time to take a picture of every step. If you can't figure out how to take the plastic vents out on your own then this project is too much for you to tackle. If it is something you can do yourself and you go with r134a, you will save a ton of money on labor without buying a bunch of tools you may use only once.

There really isn't anything to it. Take off the sun visors and the 4 other screws holding it up, it all comes down very quickly front to back. This is all outlined in the Bentley starting on page 87.9. I even linked to the tool I used to support the evaporator.

Westy vs. Tin Top comment is simply that the Westy drivers seem to think the stock AC is inadequate even after a rebuild. The tin top system is much better and works fine on r134a (with a proper condenser and compressor).

For costs:
Condensor - $110
Compressor - $368
Receiver/drier - $30
Expansion Valve - $35
Rebuilt Hoses - $186
Charge System & Check for Leaks - $272
Total - $1,001
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djkeev
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Tin Top A/C Rebuild Experience Reply with quote

dart330 wrote:
I did not intend this to be a full how-to thread, just sharing my experience. I don't have time to take a picture of every step. If you can't figure out how to take the plastic vents out on your own then this project is too much for you to tackle. If it is something you can do yourself and you go with r134a, you will save a ton of money on labor without buying a bunch of tools you may use only once.

There really isn't anything to it. Take off the sun visors and the 4 other screws holding it up, it all comes down very quickly front to back. This is all outlined in the Bentley starting on page 87.9. I even linked to the tool I used to support the evaporator.

Westy vs. Tin Top comment is simply that the Westy drivers seem to think the stock AC is inadequate even after a rebuild. The tin top system is much better and works fine on r134a (with a proper condenser and compressor).


Whoa dude!
Chill.

You mentioned in the thread title that you were making an A/C rebuild for tintop owners because most of what is online here is camper related and then you completely omit mentioning THE difference between tintops and campers.

Not trying to piss you off but really?.......
I guess it is too bad that all of those threads with lots of pictures of camper A/C rebuilding didn't help you at all?

Plus, you've never seen me complain about my system performing poorly after the rebuild, as a matter of fact my Wife puts on a jacket when we turn on the A/C in my Westy.

BTW Many tintop owners have documented here that they removed all that ductwork for it hinders air flow and cooling rather than enhancing it.
Tintop evaporators are the exact same unit as Westy's have, just mounted differently.

Those of us who have chosen the r12a route have chosen a better operating and ecologically better alternative to r134a.

Dave
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dhaavers
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Tin Top A/C Rebuild Experience Reply with quote

dart330 wrote:
Westy vs. Tin Top comment is simply that the Westy drivers seem to think the stock AC is inadequate even after a rebuild...

djkeev wrote:
...my Wife puts on a jacket when we turn on the A/C in my Westy...

Yeah - that's our problem, too:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

(85° ambient; 39° @ vents; 42° @ rear seat; 72° @ driver's seat)

Wink Rolling Eyes Cool

Still, good to know it's working for you, Dart. My PO paid 3 different shops over $3000 trying to
get the system working on r134a...all money down the drain for him... <shrug/shaking head>

- Dave
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Tin Top A/C Rebuild Experience Reply with quote

djkeev wrote:

Whoa dude!
Chill.


Maybe he shoulda, you know, gone with the R12 route after all?
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Tin Top A/C Rebuild Experience Reply with quote

If he had of, he'd be seeing lower vent temps instead of.
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dart330
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Tin Top A/C Rebuild Experience Reply with quote

I hope I didn't offend you Dave. I was trying to respond to your questions and criticisms.

I did not say I was making an A/C rebuild thread for tintop owners, simply sharing my experience and why I chose what I did. Trying to help those who don't want to create an AC system shops usually won't touch.

Yes, I understand the passenger and camper versions are the same mechanical systems. The majority of AC threads on this forum are written about Westys which means discussing cabinetry and poor vent design (yes I have read them).

The passenger ducting is designed to blow air on the driver's face. The camper version does not. This seems to be the main Westy AC complaint and why they often seek in dash units.

Again, it is ok to use modern, legal, refrigerants and you can save a lot of time and money doing so. Don't skimp out on a retrofit, just rebuild the entire system and you can freeze out the driver in a tin top.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:46 am    Post subject: Re: Tin Top A/C Rebuild Experience Reply with quote

I don't think you need to be apologizing for anything. You posted up some great information, shared photos, and explained the reasons why you made your choices. Tin top vs. camper, not a big deal that is just where your brain was when you posted so you included it in your title. If someone wants to take issue with that or why you chose one type of gas over that's just the nature of the forum. Thanks for sharing your AC adventure.
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Tin Top A/C Rebuild Experience Reply with quote

I'm interested in knowing the size and length of the hoses that were replaced.

And what mods needed to be done to fit them to the r134 replacement parts.

There is a crimping tool on the market for about$150 that could be bought, used and sold again together with the unused retainer clips and ferrules to some other cheap sambanista for the win.

Or take the money saved and buy some r12a.
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campism
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Tin Top A/C Rebuild Experience Reply with quote

Okay, tintop owners, where did they put this poor guy's feet?
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:19 am    Post subject: Re: Tin Top A/C Rebuild Experience Reply with quote

pablum wrote:
I'm interested in knowing the size and length of the hoses that were replaced.

And what mods needed to be done to fit them to the r134 replacement parts.

There is a crimping tool on the market for about$150 that could be bought, used and sold again together with the unused retainer clips and ferrules to some other cheap sambanista for the win.

Or take the money saved and buy some r12a.


The shop cut the ends off the old hoses and welded them onto new crimps when a modern replacement was not available. This had to be done for the compressor fittings, but I think the others are available new. Everything on the new hoses is plug and play with the replacement parts. I can list out the sizes they used from the invoice if you are interested.

I don't think you can buy the parts and tools to build your own hoses for less than $200.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject: Re: Tin Top A/C Rebuild Experience Reply with quote

dhaavers wrote:

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- Dave


She needs to have the fluffy slippers on too! Laughing
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:07 am    Post subject: Re: Tin Top A/C Rebuild Experience Reply with quote

The OP stated that Sanden no longer made R12 compressors, but just for clarity sake, I assume that just means that they no longer make the original compressors that came on the WBX which happened to come filled with R12 at the time. Any AC compressor should be able to function with any automotive refrigerant as far as I can tell. The compressor on my TDI swap says R134a, but I'll be using propane/isobutane, but it just as easily could use R12 or any other available refrigerant.

While I'm not a fan of R134a swaps, I think the OP made all the right upgrades for such an approach.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:23 am    Post subject: Re: Tin Top A/C Rebuild Experience Reply with quote

dart330 wrote:
The tin top system is much better and works fine on r134a (with a proper condenser and compressor).

For costs:
Condensor - $110
Compressor - $368
Receiver/drier - $30
Expansion Valve - $35
Rebuilt Hoses - $186
Charge System & Check for Leaks - $272
Total - $1,001


Dart,
Thanks for the great tread, I'm going to follow your lead on my 1991 Carat.
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dart330
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:33 am    Post subject: Re: Tin Top A/C Rebuild Experience Reply with quote

Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
The OP stated that Sanden no longer made R12 compressors, but just for clarity sake, I assume that just means that they no longer make the original compressors that came on the WBX which happened to come filled with R12 at the time. Any AC compressor should be able to function with any automotive refrigerant as far as I can tell. The compressor on my TDI swap says R134a, but I'll be using propane/isobutane, but it just as easily could use R12 or any other available refrigerant.

While I'm not a fan of R134a swaps, I think the OP made all the right upgrades for such an approach.


Straight from Sanden's website. www.sanden.com/objects/retro.pdf

Quote:
The use of R134a in mobile A/C systems designed for R-12 refrigerant causes higher discharge pressures (as much as 10-15%) and necessitates changing the compressor lubricant from mineral oil (5GS) to PAG oil (Sanden's SP-10 or SP-20) to ensure compatibility. These changes result in greater wear to the internal components of the compressor. Therefore, to ensure consistent and expected reliability, Sanden does not recommend using R134a in systems and compressors designed for R-12.


Based on this, there does appear to be internal differences in the compressors based on the refrigerant they are designed to be used with. This is why I installed a new compressor.
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Tin Top A/C Rebuild Experience Reply with quote

It shouldn't be a surprise that Sanden doesn't recommend converting an existing R12 system to R134a. But I was just addressing your statement about them no longer making R12 pumps. My point is that even though the compressor you bought says R134a on the label, it could just as easily be used in an R12 system. Since you already intended to convert to R134a my point is moot, but I didn't want anyone reading that to assume changing the compressor necessitated a conversion from one to another refrigerant. I think it's actually a slight upgrade to run a higher capacity R134a pump in a R12 system.
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Tin Top A/C Rebuild Experience Reply with quote

Zeitgeist 13 wrote:
My point is that <etc., etc., snippety>


I have found quite frequently my points appear to others - at least on this forum - to be singularities, or high altitude stealth planes, or satellites that simply pass by unnoticed.

Like Dave's "curative" desires for theSamba.
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Zeitgeist 13
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Tin Top A/C Rebuild Experience Reply with quote

Filing your points is obsolete
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Tin Top A/C Rebuild Experience Reply with quote

Oh thank you sir for making my point!
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