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mr white
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2005
Posts: 1193
Location: beautiful Oregon & Mohave County, AZ
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 Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:52 pm Post subject: 1974 412 Starts and dies |
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| Well I finally found and bought a 412 wagon today. I like it in some sick way. It has not run in years and I am not up to snuff on its injection system. This car will start and run for about ten seconds, then it dies and is difficult to re-start. This seems to be all it does. I am planning on getting a smoke machine to test for vac leaks. Is this a common problem? Any ideas on what to test? Any help is appreciated. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 412 Starts and dies |
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| mr white wrote: |
| Well I finally found and bought a 412 wagon today. I like it in some sick way. It has not run in years and I am not up to snuff on its injection system. This car will start and run for about ten seconds, then it dies and is difficult to re-start. This seems to be all it does. I am planning on getting a smoke machine to test for vac leaks. Is this a common problem? Any ideas on what to test? Any help is appreciated. |
What year 412?.....L-jet or D-jet injection?
If it has not run in years......clean and drain the tank.....remove the sock filter. Replace and clamp all vacuum lines....replace all fuel lines. Pull the component end plugs of all EFI components and clean and use deoxit.....especially the ground wires on the case centerline.
Check for 28 psi minimum fuel pressure.....good injector spray pattern.......no leaks or drips.....steady fuel pressure....no fluctuation. Replace all fuel lines NOW. You will need 30 feet.
Clean the distributor well and oil the breaker plates for proper movement.
If its D-jet you cannot have ANY vacuum leaks no matter how slight. I can give a more detailed answer tomorrow. Ray |
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mr white
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2005
Posts: 1193
Location: beautiful Oregon & Mohave County, AZ
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| Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 412 Starts and dies |
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| Thanks for the reply. It is a 1974. I plan on doing all those things. Many parts are ordered. Fuel pressure I will check out very soon, already drained the tank and replaced the fuel filter. Car was last a daily in 05. Parked because they bought a newer car. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:04 am Post subject: Re: 1974 412 Starts and dies |
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| mr white wrote: |
| Thanks for the reply. It is a 1974. I plan on doing all those things. Many parts are ordered. Fuel pressure I will check out very soon, already drained the tank and replaced the fuel filter. Car was last a daily in 05. Parked because they bought a newer car. |
Ok...L-jet. Less stubborn to tune.....but has itscown issuea.
The symptom you are getting can be caused by this item to start with:
. The connecting boot between the airflow meter box and throttle body is either cracked, not clamped or missing. Any air that goes into the TB MUST be metered to have fuel added to its volume. A cracked or loose boot bypasses this.
More to come. Ray |
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19super73
Hardcore Stock Nazi
Joined: October 18, 2007
Posts: 4351
Location: Cité Soleil
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19super73
Hardcore Stock Nazi
Joined: October 18, 2007
Posts: 4351
Location: Cité Soleil
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davek181
Samba Member
Joined: February 11, 2017
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 412 Starts and dies |
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| Check your head temp sensor. 2500 ohms cold, approx 300 or less hot. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:52 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 412 Starts and dies |
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| davek181 wrote: |
| Check your head temp sensor. 2500 ohms cold, approx 300 or less hot. |
This is also a good place to start. I am sorry I have not had time to fully answer. I am at an all week conference.
In general.....its proper to proceed by system group.....really no matter what EFI system.
Fuel supply system
Ignition system
Air supply system
Metering and control system.
While they are all interconnected.....VW/Bosch treats them separately....which actually works well.
Fuel supply:
You need to make sure you have proper fuel pressure both at idle and while running. This system uses a vacuum variable fuel pressure regulator. Without a vacuum signal....like when not running.....your fuel pressure will be its highest.
So....the safest way to test when you ro not know what may be messed up....is to take a pair of wires long enough to reach the battery from the front fuel tank. Crimp on a pair of female connectors. Plug them into the two connections on the fuel pump.....mind the polarity.
Before connecting to the battery.....get a basic pressure gauge. A home depot water pr3ssure gauge of 60 psi will do fine for basic function testing. Buy a brass barb, two feet of fuel line and two fuel injection hose clamps.
Connect the gauge to the Tee between cylinders 3 and 4.
Connect the fuel pump to battery. The pump should run constant. Without the engine running ...and going off memory here....you need to check the book.....your fuel pressure should read either 36 or 42 psi.
It should be steady with no leaks anywhere. You can check the regulator function if you have hand vacuum pump by connecting a 3mm vacuum hose to the regulator and pulling 10-15 inches of vacuum. The pressure should drop to about 28-30 psi....again check the book.
Then shut off the pump......the pressure should drop to about 23 psi....no less thqn 18 psi....instantly. it should hold thiw pressure while dropping slowly for at least an hour. Overnight it should n ok t drop any lower than about 10-12 psi.
As far as the air system......that being the trunking between the AFM....airflow meter...and the throttle plate....and includes the intake runners and center plenum.....
You are not allowed any air leaks. The boot between the AFM and TB....must be 100% crack free....and must be clamped on both ends or it causes the issue you are having.
You need to check for vacuum leaks on the runner boots, the vacuum line to the fuel pressure regulator and there is an O-ring between the TB and the metal center manifold. If any of these are leaking.....the fuel pressure regulator senses that as an open throttle....and gives high fuel pressure....which can flood the system.
I will get into more checks later. Ray |
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mr white
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2005
Posts: 1193
Location: beautiful Oregon & Mohave County, AZ
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 10:17 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 412 Starts and dies |
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| Thanks for the replies! I plan on smoke testing the engine this weekend. I can here a chirp when I start it, sounds like a massive leak then it stalls out. I will report with the findings. Also what wheels can I install on this? A couple of the stock wheels are rusty and bent. What others from other VWs will work? |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:35 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 412 Starts and dies |
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| mr white wrote: |
| Thanks for the replies! I plan on smoke testing the engine this weekend. I can here a chirp when I start it, sounds like a massive leak then it stalls out. I will report with the findings. Also what wheels can I install on this? A couple of the stock wheels are rusty and bent. What others from other VWs will work? |
They should be the same as type 3.
As for smoke testing.....too delicate of a process. Really the correct way for a car that has been sitting is to physically replace the vacuum lines, clamp everything and put new intake gaskets, runner seals, injector seals, oil chimney gasket, valve cover gaskets.
These harden up with age and are regular maintenace items. Seals like the runner boots, throttle body shaft seal and the seal between the TB and the manifold plenun are generally found to never have been replaced.
Items like the oil chimney gasket, the injector seals and the small seals I mentioned above...generally will not get found by smoke testing because they seal at low rpm and open up with temperature change and vibration. They only really leak while driving.
Save yourself months of poor running or no driving headaches and just do the due-diligence.
There is no "ok to run with" condition short of absolutely perfect vacuum tight on these engines. Ray |
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mr white
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2005
Posts: 1193
Location: beautiful Oregon & Mohave County, AZ
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:45 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 412 Starts and dies |
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| I smoke tested it yesterday and found the leaks! At least a few for starters. The dipstick boot is leaking, the chimney gasket, and a hose at a T section. Going to start there first. Really like this car! |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:53 am Post subject: Re: 1974 412 Starts and dies |
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| mr white wrote: |
| I smoke tested it yesterday and found the leaks! At least a few for starters. The dipstick boot is leaking, the chimney gasket, and a hose at a T section. Going to start there first. Really like this car! |
Very nice! Just remember that a lot of leaks on old runused rubber parts.....do not open up until running and driving.
Welcome to the 411/412 world! Post some pictures!
You think you like this car now...wait until you drive it. Its such a different air cooled vehicle than all the others.
The seats are excellent.....they are very roomy....they have excellent lines of site and visibility.....they handle decent (even better with mods)....very smooth ride....excellent brakes from the factory......excellent heat..... Most people get hooked.....once they drive it.
Once you really get this thing running......please take a look at the threads about,suspension.
At this age these cars should not be driven much until you do the due-diligence for a bare minimum....the front suspension. It had some basic material defects that are magnified by age. Driving the car before you sort them out will destroy parts you cannot get and drive you crazy because it will affect the handling.
The other item.....is that your engine in the 1974 should be a 1.8L with L-jet injection.
The L-jet was reliable.....but the engine was detuned from the factory for emissions. It made it hard to tune, hot running and with less power.
When you get to the point of a refurb/rebuild.....go to flat-top pistons.....or possibly you may do well enough just removing the factory head gaskets and shims (you should do this as there was a factory service bulletin to remove the head gaskets).
Bringing the compression up to between 8.0 and 8.4:1......will bring power up to close to 90hp.....make it run cooler and make it tune more accurately. A new cam like a Web-73 or a Raby 9590....will make it reliable...and help cooling and output. Ray |
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mr white
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2005
Posts: 1193
Location: beautiful Oregon & Mohave County, AZ
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 4:52 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 412 Starts and dies |
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| Put a decent lick in today on the 412. Fixed one vac leak, I was unable to fix the oil dipstick boot as the one I bought was way smaller and shorter than what is on the car. The reason why it would not run was the air meter attached to the upper air box, this is a 6 pin unit. Someone at some point messed with it as the flap in it was slightly bent seriously binding in the housing. I removed the factory goo sealant, took out the two Phillips and carefully knocked the heads off the pins of the housing and opened it up so I could clearly see the issue and correct it. Victory!! Put it together and i8t idles and performs great! Going to adjust the valves and replace the points. It needs brakes, looks like autozone has calipers at $55 each exchanged! Getting close! |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 412 Starts and dies |
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| mr white wrote: |
| Put a decent lick in today on the 412. Fixed one vac leak, I was unable to fix the oil dipstick boot as the one I bought was way smaller and shorter than what is on the car. The reason why it would not run was the air meter attached to the upper air box, this is a 6 pin unit. Someone at some point messed with it as the flap in it was slightly bent seriously binding in the housing. I removed the factory goo sealant, took out the two Phillips and carefully knocked the heads off the pins of the housing and opened it up so I could clearly see the issue and correct it. Victory!! Put it together and i8t idles and performs great! Going to adjust the valves and replace the points. It needs brakes, looks like autozone has calipers at $55 each exchanged! Getting close! |
Be careful. There is an early and late caliper. Rebuild quality has been sketchy.
I personally do not trust any of the rebuilds out there at this point. I would buy new if it was Centric brand...as they have good quality.....but it is unlikely that you will find rebuild kits for those in the future.
If the auto parts store requires your calipers as cores...DONT DO IT. Look at my thread for rebuilding the front calipers. Its not hard.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=658176
You can get the correct kits with lock plates and new bolts.....AND.... the all important caliper half seals that many rebuilt calipers may not have.....here
http://m.pmbperformance.com/catalog/item/1925563/8698978. For $23 per caliper. Throw in a can of VHT caliper paint from autozone or O'Reilly....and with shipping and a few hours of work.....you get best quality calipers for about $65-70 out the door for the pair.
The hardwars kit....springs and pins can be had from Rockauto .....Centric part # 11733007. It does both calipers and is good quality.
While you are buying from Rockauto buy a set of Carlson front brake pad shims. They are $1.86 per set and covers both calipers.
Part # 18003. http://www.rockauto.com/m/mobilecatalog.php?parttype=1740
Also....do NOT buy organic/non-metallic pads. These came with metallic pads from the factory. Organic pads stop so poorly they cause rotor warpage on these cars. If you need a pad recommendation let me know.
Ray |
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mr white
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2005
Posts: 1193
Location: beautiful Oregon & Mohave County, AZ
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 412 Starts and dies |
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| I figured I would post here rather than opening another thread. I found a set of some old western turbine wheels for VW. These are 15x5.5 wheels. Can anyone tell me what tire size I should shoot for? I purchased calipers after looking everywhere, just waiting for them to show from Rock Auto. Any help on the tire size is appreciated. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:16 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 412 Starts and dies |
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| mr white wrote: |
| I figured I would post here rather than opening another thread. I found a set of some old western turbine wheels for VW. These are 15x5.5 wheels. Can anyone tell me what tire size I should shoot for? I purchased calipers after looking everywhere, just waiting for them to show from Rock Auto. Any help on the tire size is appreciated. |
As long as offset and back spacing are good.....I run 5.5 x 15s on my 412. I have 205/60-15 on front and rear with no issues. Have about 120k miles on that set up.
The speedometer will be just about factory correct with 195-60/15s. Ray |
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mr white
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2005
Posts: 1193
Location: beautiful Oregon & Mohave County, AZ
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| Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 412 Starts and dies |
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| Thanks for the reply Sir. Do you think I can get away with a 205 70 15? |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:30 am Post subject: Re: 1974 412 Starts and dies |
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| mr white wrote: |
| Thanks for the reply Sir. Do you think I can get away with a 205 70 15? |
Its possible.....but I would not use a 205 in a 70 series.....without testing it witu the wheels on the car. Those are right at the fringe of too high in the sidewall. The 205/60-15 is just about the largest tire you can put on.....and you need to check the wheel offset.
The stock after market Chrome 5.5" x 15" wheels for type 3...used to be made by Mangels.....have the right offset and back spacing.
The problem with the 70 series that can get you....is that if your front struts are not in excellent shape ....when you hit a bump.....and your wheels are turned....you will hit the fender. The way the upper area of the fender is and the slope....it can bend the fender.
Bear in mind.....a 70 series....or even the stock 80 series 4.5" tires are not a problem because.....they are skinnier.
The stock tire sidewall height(s) are:.....and remember that these were 75 or 80 series
165-80-15: 132mm
165-75-15: 123.75mm
185-80-15: 148mm
185-75-15: 138.75mm
The 5.5" tires
195-60-15: 117mm
195-65-15: 126.75mm
195-70-15: 136.5
205-55-15: 135mm
205-60-15: 123mm
205-65-15: 133.25mm
205-70-15: 143.5mm
While the 205-70 seems to be not far off of the 185-80 in sidewall height...which was stock......it is just about an inch wider. The offset of the wheel and backspacing will be the critical part.
EDIT...by the way...there is a lot of room under the fenders. I beleive Wally on the STF put 16" or 17" wheels on his 412...but with low profile...like 45-50 series sidewalls, very good front struts (Audi or BMW modification) and perfect wheel centering for offset and back spacing. It can be done...but the wheel offset will be critical. Ray |
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mr white
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2005
Posts: 1193
Location: beautiful Oregon & Mohave County, AZ
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 412 Starts and dies |
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| Can someone post good pics of their front seats? May have found a pair but not sure if they are 412, |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:19 pm Post subject: Re: 1974 412 Starts and dies |
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| mr white wrote: |
| Can someone post good pics of their front seats? May have found a pair but not sure if they are 412, |
Take a picture of what you have found. It may be easier than me getting to mine. Or I will see what I can post from the books in the am. Ray |
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