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drdiesel871
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2017
Posts: 7
Location: Portland, OR
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 Posted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:16 pm Post subject: 914 Newbie here. |
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Hi everyone, new to the forum and building a 1976 Porsche 914 engine for a buddy.
Definitely a learning experience, I am a fulltime diesel mechanic and have build a lot of truck engines and a handfull of motorcycle engine. The air cooled thing is a new chapter for me.
My question is, What is the orange strip seal around the oil seperator plate called/sold as? I am having a really hard time finding a listing for it. The one I got out was old and brittle so it needs to be replaced. I expected it to come in the gasket kit, but no such luck.
Thanks in advance! Travis |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 5:58 am Post subject: Re: 914 Newbie here. |
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| drdiesel871 wrote: |
Hi everyone, new to the forum and building a 1976 Porsche 914 engine for a buddy.
Definitely a learning experience, I am a fulltime diesel mechanic and have build a lot of truck engines and a handfull of motorcycle engine. The air cooled thing is a new chapter for me.
My question is, What is the orange strip seal around the oil seperator plate called/sold as? I am having a really hard time finding a listing for it. The one I got out was old and brittle so it needs to be replaced. I expected it to come in the gasket kit, but no such luck.
Thanks in advance! Travis |
Its the windage tray seal. It is made of silicone.
In a pinch you can use high temp silicone tubing...split lengthwise and held on with one of the Permatex Ultra oil proof silicone RtV....like Utra black or ultra copper.
You can get them here:
http://www.sierramadrecollection.com/Windage-Tray-Baffle-Seal-914-70-76-p25400.html
Ray |
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Starbucket
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007
Posts: 4023
Location: WA
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:00 pm Post subject: Re: 914 Newbie here. |
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| Lots of parts at autohauseaz.com. |
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drdiesel871
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2017
Posts: 7
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: 914 Newbie here. |
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Awesome, this is exactly what I needed. Thanks! |
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Bleyseng
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:02 am Post subject: Re: 914 Newbie here. |
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Enlarge the hole in the tray so the oil drains back faster. It tends to sit on the tray and in hard cornering can starve the engine of oil.
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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drdiesel871
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2017
Posts: 7
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 3:43 am Post subject: Re: 914 Newbie here. |
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| Bleyseng wrote: |
| Enlarge the hole in the tray so the oil drains back faster. It tends to sit on the tray and in hard cornering can starve the engine of oil. |
Will do. I saw another post around here with some guidelines. The engine that I am rebuilding appears to have had a lube problem from the oil cooler trying to fall off. there was a streak of oil right down the engine where it had been pumping the oil out, not into the cooler core and spit a rod bearing out. Fortunately I was able to have the crank turned and rods resized. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:40 am Post subject: Re: 914 Newbie here. |
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| drdiesel871 wrote: |
| Bleyseng wrote: |
| Enlarge the hole in the tray so the oil drains back faster. It tends to sit on the tray and in hard cornering can starve the engine of oil. |
Will do. I saw another post around here with some guidelines. The engine that I am rebuilding appears to have had a lube problem from the oil cooler trying to fall off. there was a streak of oil right down the engine where it had been pumping the oil out, not into the cooler core and spit a rod bearing out. Fortunately I was able to have the crank turned and rods resized. |
There are a handful of items to check/measure on air cooled engines in general....and type 4 engines like these in specific.....that are not found on water cooled vehicles.
If this is your first air cooled build.....the type 4 is a bit more difficult for a beginner engine than a type 1.....partly because there is less easy to find information and partly because the shop manuals in existence .....were not written to solve issues that crop up from being 40+ years old.....and partly because there are less parts available and they are more expensive.
Many times with a type 1 engine....if damage or age related wear is too extensive to fix with eiter your tools, expertise or money.....you simply find a core motor in better shape or buy a brand new engine case. You do not have the second option with type 4....and less of the first option.
So.....you need to be very careful about how you go about checking and measuring. Really I would take some time to work look around in the shoptalk forums in the type4rum....about inspecting type 4 cases.
Some issues:
1. When you have damaged a bearing......you will need a new oil cooler. Both type 1 and 4 tend to pump metal into the cooler than can get recirculated.
2. Because of age....you need to torque the stripped case together correctly with all bolts and with a light and a .0005" feeler gauge.....check all of the crank and cam bearing webs for gap/bowing away from each other.....case warpage. When its excessive you will get fretting of the maain bearings and leakage of oil pressure.
3. There are specific number of oil galley plugs that should be removed and tapped for pipe plugs. Not only are the factory pressed in plugs a common risk of blowing out and losing all oil pressure.....there will be trapped debris from the bearing failure in these galleys.
4. Especially when a leaking oil cooler is suspected.....you need to inspect the primary oil pressure relief piston bore for smoothness of bore and seat. You can rent or buy a seat clean up tool from AC.net and others.
5. The case halves need to be placed on a check stone and the cylinder seat areas checkex with a depth mic. It is common with age to have some sagging of the cylinder seat areas. By now about 7 of 10 cases need to have the head studs removed and the case decked to both set them flat to each other and parallel to the crank centerline.
6. You need to check the one long bolt that suspends the oil pickup bell in tue casem about half the engines out there have damage here from overtorque of the bolt that cracks the case boss on the cam bearing bore. Sometimes ot can be fixed...sometimes not. It MUST have a maximum torque of 9 ft lbs Only to prevent damage.
I also have a how to written to weld in feet for the oil pick up bell that will prevent case danage in the event of an over torque. Its in the 411/412 forum. Do a search on "type 4 syndrome".
7. At the end of the oil circuit there is a second oil pressure valve. On carbed engines that had a mechanical fuel pump....and had a pushrod going through a bushing. On fuel injected engines the pump boss was not drilled....but the bushing is pressed in place from the inside. You must make sure that bushing is still there and that the spring snd plunger are still in the bore....or you will have massive internal oil pressure loss.
8. The main bearings available for type 4 engines these days have suspect quality. Wha5ever you buy you MUST measure and test fit carefully.
9. DO NOT reuse the factory camshaft and lifters. They had issues and ran hot....and at this point in time are not worth rebuilding. There are plenty of better than stock aftermarket cams available for stock or modified 914. Webcam for one....the type 4 store for two.....and always buy the lifters from the cam maker with it.
10. Buy double thrust cam bearings.....better insurance and you must carefully check the gap between oil pump and cam gear bolts. .080" minimum.
11. Cylinder heads at this age....must have new seats. You need to have a minimum of about .0045" interference fit...max of about .006" on the valve seats. But the best valves you can.
12. Buy a solid rocker spacer kit and a set of 911 valve adjuster screws for use on 1.7L rocker arms. Do not skimp on the valve adjuster screws.
13. Delete the factory head gaskets. There was a factory service bulletin regarding this. They cause head leakage and damage issues. Instead lap the cylinders into the heads with valve grinding compound. Have the head seating surfaces skimmed a few thousandths.....and be sure to recalculate the compression ratio and set it with shims between the cylinder and case.
Keep your deck between .040" and .050" maximum.
There are other details I may he missing but these are the main items. Just lettkng you know that this is not a simple reassembly job.
Ray |
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drdiesel871
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2017
Posts: 7
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:08 am Post subject: Re: 914 Newbie here. |
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There is a ton of great information here! Thanks a lot for the thorough response Mr. Greenwood!
It sounds like I am moving in the right direction. I know this much so far, I have a lot of reading and learning to do. This is a build for a good friend.
Already have a new oil cooler, premium engine bearings
Details to follow. I will be out in the garage tomorrow. The cases measured really well when I did my out of round measurements in the crank bores. I will bolt them together and do the feeler gauge testing as well.
Was able to save the crank and rods at the machine shop.
Sounds like I have my work cut out for me in terms of drilling and tapping for oil galley plugs. The cleaning after a metal failure needs to be 100% right on engines.
The bore and piston on the oil pressure regulator were in surprisingly good shape.
The list goes on. This sounds like about the amount of work that I expected to put together a reliable engine. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:43 am Post subject: Re: 914 Newbie here. |
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A cool trick for cleaning out the galleys and case halves.
If you have a pressure washer.....especially a cheap one where the pressure is not insanely high......and can be turned down to a couple hundred psi......buy or make an extra nozzle extension. Weld the end shut or roll it over or crimp it shut.
Then cut a series of small holes in the side of the nozzle tube near the end.
You can slide this nozzle into galleys spraying sideways at the bore to get at and info dead end areas to dislodge sludge and metal particles. You will be suprised at what comes out. Ray |
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drdiesel871
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2017
Posts: 7
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:40 pm Post subject: Re: 914 Newbie here. |
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Has anyone done a write up yet on drilling and pipe tapping oil passage plugs for cleaning?
It's the only way I am going to be able to trust this with the amount of metal this engine ate for its last supper. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: 914 Newbie here. |
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| drdiesel871 wrote: |
Has anyone done a write up yet on drilling and pipe tapping oil passage plugs for cleaning?
It's the only way I am going to be able to trust this with the amount of metal this engine ate for its last supper. |
I am sure there are many....nut you should buy this
http://www.bugmevideo.com/volume8.html
This is Jake Rabys bug me video. The complete how to for basic type 4 engine rebuild.
Ray |
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drdiesel871
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2017
Posts: 7
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sat Apr 01, 2017 8:45 pm Post subject: Re: 914 Newbie here. |
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Got the plugs out. found surprisingly little debris for the rest of the engines contamination. Time well spent for peace of mind.
Does anyone have any favorite oil galley pipe plugs that they use or recommend where to buy?
Pulled the heads apart. Found a valve seat unbonded and slides in and out the head. Seats and faces looked great. Previous build did not have a lot of hours on it.
Can the seat be put in with a peen and retaining compound, or should I start pricing heads? I think they are 2.0 heads. Intakes measure just under 41mm and exhaust just under 34mm.
Just another "easy" engine job. No such thing. |
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Bleyseng
Samba Member
Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4752
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:38 am Post subject: Re: 914 Newbie here. |
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2.0L heads are easy to identify as they have 3 intake studs vs 4 studs. 34mm/31mm sound like 1.8L heads
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 8:23 am Post subject: Re: 914 Newbie here. |
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| drdiesel871 wrote: |
Got the plugs out. found surprisingly little debris for the rest of the engines contamination. Time well spent for peace of mind.
Does anyone have any favorite oil galley pipe plugs that they use or recommend where to buy?
Pulled the heads apart. Found a valve seat unbonded and slides in and out the head. Seats and faces looked great. Previous build did not have a lot of hours on it.
Can the seat be put in with a peen and retaining compound, or should I start pricing heads? I think they are 2.0 heads. Intakes measure just under 41mm and exhaust just under 34mm.
Just another "easy" engine job. No such thing. |
No. Valve seats need to be interference fit.
If you have a loose valve seat....the heads are very suspect for cracks. You need to have them crack tested and inspected in the exhaust ports. They are either high mileage or overheated chronically.
The rule of thumb.....in general......type 4 heads should have all new valve seats on ANY rebuild.....unless you know that an engine that has had new seats and is being torn down for a non catastrophic reason after a very short time.
The seats fall out because the heads get overheated and/or are running high spring tension coupled with that......and over time with heat cycling the aluminum loses some elasticity.
By the way....you have not mentioned WHICH 914 engine you are working on.
Time to post at least the engine # and or some pics of where the intakes bolt to the heads. Is this a 1.7L, 1.8L or 2.0L. There are some small specific characteristics for all of them.
The new valve seats need to be pressed in with a bare, bare minimum of .0045" interference. A .005" to .006" is ideal. Ray |
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drdiesel871
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2017
Posts: 7
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:00 pm Post subject: Re: 914 Newbie here. |
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From what I have read so far, it's a 2.0 out of A 1976 914. It's a GC serial number prefix.
The lose seat came out of #1 cylinder, which is also the one that spun the crank bearing.
What's the preferred method to crack check these heads? I have a dye check kit at work. I will get them stripped and jetwashed and visually inspected before going any further.
The guides felt great and there are marking on this head. This engine has clearly been apart before.
I will have the other head torn apart here in a bit. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21507
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Apr 02, 2017 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: 914 Newbie here. |
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What are the markings on the head?
Who built or worked on these....can tell you many good or nasty things....pray to whatever diety you worship that you do not find GEX or SIR stamped anywhere on this,engine or those heads.
The valve guides in any type 4 rebuild should be replaced as well even if they measure fine.
The problem is not wear per-se....its heat cycling and side loading. They could last another 100k.....or crack off a portion.....really common.....and wipe out a valve.
Really....with the cost for GOOD new heads.......and the age of all stock heads.....its false e onomy to not replace all seats, valves and guides as standard procedure.
Yes...a dye kitcwill be fine. Seriously...buying the bug me video would help a lot. Jake Raby is the absolute guru of the industry of type 4 engines. He gets into all of this.
Do some Googling on VW/Porsche 914 2.0 heads....and the crack issues. Inspect for cracks anywhere in the exhaust ports, from the sprak phg holes and between valve seats.
Buy quality valves with hardened stellite tips....ONLY.....not cheap stainless. Check with aircooled.net, fat performance and Pelican parts. I bought Swiss made Intervalve brand for mine from pelican. Not good enough for say....racing.....but as good as factory and have stellite tips and chrome stems. Ray |
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