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theDrew Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2011 Posts: 1155 Location: Camas, WA
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Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build |
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So now one is pre-T, and the other two are just above the plenums. |
Might want to read snow performances documentation -- they recommended NOT doing a nozzle pre turbo as it errodes the turbine fin edges based on some study SAAB did.
Thanks for the info! _________________ Turbo 2276 MS3X build http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673125
1985 Vanagon Campmobile w/ 2005 EJ25 |
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Chip Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2008 Posts: 969 Location: Utah
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Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build |
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theDrew wrote: |
Quote: |
So now one is pre-T, and the other two are just above the plenums. |
Might want to read snow performances documentation -- they recommended NOT doing a nozzle pre turbo as it errodes the turbine fin edges based on some study SAAB did.
Thanks for the info! |
I did a ton of research on that. Many opinions on both sides of the argument. Like I said, in the end, I chose not to. When I said pre T, i meant pre-t section of the intake, after the intercooler. |
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theDrew Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2011 Posts: 1155 Location: Camas, WA
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Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build |
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well I seem to have reached a milestone in my tuning -- I can make clutch slip.
I have a KEP stage 1 with a copperhead disc. I'm leery to go to a Stage 2 as it might be to harsh.
Maybe theres a stage 1.5? _________________ Turbo 2276 MS3X build http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673125
1985 Vanagon Campmobile w/ 2005 EJ25 |
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clonebug Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005 Posts: 4027 Location: NW Washington
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Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 11:30 am Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build |
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I’m using a Stage II AND CB Super disc and .031 shims between flywheel and PP.
Holds to 250 ft lbs plus using a torque wrench.
My turbo engine was slipping the Stage I at 22 lbs boost.
It’s been working nicely all summer. _________________
vwracerdave wrote: |
Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see. |
Paul.H wrote: |
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month |
My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936 |
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Chip Samba Member
Joined: July 19, 2008 Posts: 969 Location: Utah
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Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2018 8:46 am Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build |
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clonebug wrote: |
I’m using a Stage II AND CB Super disc and .031 shims between flywheel and PP.
Holds to 250 ft lbs plus using a torque wrench.
My turbo engine was slipping the Stage I at 22 lbs boost.
It’s been working nicely all summer. |
The disc is what causes a clutch to be aggressive in my experience. The pp just helps it stay stuck. Stg 2 is a little heavier on the foot than a stg 1, but not bad, if you switch to a long arm on the transmission, you won't really notice the difference in the PP on the foot. It will hold better once the engine starts making torque though. I used to run the Copperhead's big brother the nla Diamondback with a stg 3. That was an awesome combo, very drivable, but held well too. It eventually stopped holding(after 5 years). I tried a couple other things with the stg 3, but nothing would give similar results. I switched to a stg 2 and RLR Black Magic disc. Still drivable, though not as good as the old combo in stop and go,once it heats up, but it does give me the high rpm hold that nothing else would. I'm gonna stick with it for now. I don't think you need to go there with your setup unless you plan to really turn up the boost. Something similar to clones setup might be nice, and I'm sure its drivable. |
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clonebug Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005 Posts: 4027 Location: NW Washington
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Posted: Mon Sep 03, 2018 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build |
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Chip B. wrote: |
clonebug wrote: |
I’m using a Stage II AND CB Super disc and .031 shims between flywheel and PP.
Holds to 250 ft lbs plus using a torque wrench.
My turbo engine was slipping the Stage I at 22 lbs boost.
It’s been working nicely all summer. |
The disc is what causes a clutch to be aggressive in my experience. The pp just helps it stay stuck. Stg 2 is a little heavier on the foot than a stg 1, but not bad, if you switch to a long arm on the transmission, you won't really notice the difference in the PP on the foot. It will hold better once the engine starts making torque though. I used to run the Copperhead's big brother the nla Diamondback with a stg 3. That was an awesome combo, very drivable, but held well too. It eventually stopped holding(after 5 years). I tried a couple other things with the stg 3, but nothing would give similar results. I switched to a stg 2 and RLR Black Magic disc. Still drivable, though not as good as the old combo in stop and go,once it heats up, but it does give me the high rpm hold that nothing else would. I'm gonna stick with it for now. I don't think you need to go there with your setup unless you plan to really turn up the boost. Something similar to clones setup might be nice, and I'm sure its drivable. |
Adding a longer Throwout arm kept the effort just about the same as a Stage I.
I did have some slight chatter at first but it has gone away after some miles and is pretty smooth now.
I do have to push the clutch pedal ALL the way in for good disengagement on most shifts but I'm pretty well used to it if I drive the buggy every day. _________________
vwracerdave wrote: |
Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see. |
Paul.H wrote: |
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month |
My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936 |
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theDrew Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2011 Posts: 1155 Location: Camas, WA
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 8:48 am Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build |
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thanks for the input -- I think I'll step up to the Stage 2 pp, and maybe run a diakin disc.....or maybe stick with my copperhead. Unsure
Either my main seal is leaking or the cam plug....either way I was going to pull the motor to address it, so I'll swap the clutch/pp then.
Took me a while to figure out why my RPM's would go sky high at points in the power band and then it finally donned on me! I just thought my wheels were slipping. _________________ Turbo 2276 MS3X build http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673125
1985 Vanagon Campmobile w/ 2005 EJ25 |
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Splitdog Samba Split Personality
Joined: February 16, 2004 Posts: 4125 Location: Planet VW
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Posted: Tue Sep 04, 2018 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build |
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You were rotating the earth!
I have a stage II and a Daiken. Very pleased. Holds 235 hp no problem. And streetable as heck. _________________ CH³NO²
Z = z² + C
Der Blitzkrieg Kafers
#notacallooker |
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Chase1 Samba Member
Joined: January 26, 2004 Posts: 28 Location: DC Metro
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Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2018 6:08 am Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build |
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I was just wondering if you started to tune the accel enrichment? I finally got my project up and running and was having issues with a pretty big off idle stumble. Here is what I did, let me know if this is similar to how you guys did it.
I lowered my accel TPSdot threshold to 20.0 as I had some noise in my TPSdot of 5.8% when idling (I assume it has to do with the wiring close to the coil wiring; I'll get this fixed later). This number will probably be lower once I get more testing done. I left everything else the same. Another point is that I'm not using any MAP based AE correction at this point (or ever).
_________________ This we'll defend. |
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theDrew Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2011 Posts: 1155 Location: Camas, WA
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Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2018 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build |
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Here are my current settings, I'd say there pretty good for my setup, I dont see big dips or spikes in the AFR when I punch the throttle.
First things first, do you have some type of restrictor for the MAP signal to help smooth it out? Otherwise this will be a tough task if you have a noisy signal.
I'm using a MIG tip (.035" i think) to help smooth the signal.
Next, I've found the best method is to go to a parking lot somewhere (so you dont annoy the neighbors) and turn all the AE off and then slowly start turning it up until the engine doesn't stumble and you dont see the AFR go crazy. First to tiny stabs on the throttle, get those right and then slowly make them bigger. Engines are pretty linear so you can start to see the trends once you have a few working data points.
Good luck!
_________________ Turbo 2276 MS3X build http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673125
1985 Vanagon Campmobile w/ 2005 EJ25 |
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58ragman Samba Member
Joined: September 29, 2014 Posts: 404 Location: OC to ontario
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Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 12:10 pm Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build |
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theDrew wrote: |
well I seem to have reached a milestone in my tuning -- I can make clutch slip.
I have a KEP stage 1 with a copperhead disc. I'm leery to go to a Stage 2 as it might be to harsh.
Maybe theres a stage 1.5? |
use a stage 1 KEP with a RLR black magic disc
too harsh even the 1700 KEp stage 1 then get a
RLR rev 6 clutch system the pedal is butter smooth and baby pessure easy to press its phenominal |
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Splitdog Samba Split Personality
Joined: February 16, 2004 Posts: 4125 Location: Planet VW
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Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:28 pm Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build |
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Stage 2 with a daiken. Done. _________________ CH³NO²
Z = z² + C
Der Blitzkrieg Kafers
#notacallooker |
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theDrew Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2011 Posts: 1155 Location: Camas, WA
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Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 1:44 pm Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build |
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I think I'm going the cheapest route for me at this point which is Stage 2 with a diakin disc (already have one)
I also noticed one of my rhino engine mounts if split in half...so add that to the list when i take it out. _________________ Turbo 2276 MS3X build http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673125
1985 Vanagon Campmobile w/ 2005 EJ25 |
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theDrew Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2011 Posts: 1155 Location: Camas, WA
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 2:35 pm Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build |
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guys -- I'm seeing something that I can't explain yet.
After a big pull, I see my oil pressure drop considerably for a moment and then return to normal pressure.
its strange that it only happens AFTER I let off the throttle.
see here (white is OP, red is RPM) -- spun it up to 7k, pressure is pegging out my sensor (60psi sensor), then I let off the throttle, the OP drops to 3psi for 0.3s and then bounces back
its never happened DURING a pull, just after I close the throttle plate.
I have a deep sump, and my oil level is to the top dipstick mark.
can anyone explain this to me?
_________________ Turbo 2276 MS3X build http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673125
1985 Vanagon Campmobile w/ 2005 EJ25 |
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jeffrey8164 Samba Member
Joined: January 06, 2018 Posts: 3815 Location: Georgia
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Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build |
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theDrew wrote: |
I also noticed one of my rhino engine mounts if split in half...so add that to the list when i take it out. |
That saddens me. I just put new Rhino mounts in thinking they wouldn’t do this. The urethane mounts they replaced basically crumbled to nothing.
Oh well. There’s the ideal and then there’s what you can deal with. |
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Towel Rail Horizontally Opposed
Joined: April 15, 2005 Posts: 4622 Location: SE CR IA US NA PE
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Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build |
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I'm tempted to wonder if the oil feed to the turbo is messing with the sensor after the engine RPMs come down (but the turbo still has yet to come down all the way), but I don't know how plausible that is. _________________ 1974 Thing -- under the knife
1967 Beetle -- spring/summer/fall driver
1996 Subaru OBW (EJ22, 5-speed, AWD) -- winter car, 3-seasons "don't feel like biking today" car
049 > 070 > 053 > 009 |
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theDrew Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2011 Posts: 1155 Location: Camas, WA
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Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2018 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build |
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Towel Rail wrote: |
I'm tempted to wonder if the oil feed to the turbo is messing with the sensor after the engine RPMs come down (but the turbo still has yet to come down all the way), but I don't know how plausible that is. |
I should add, my sensor is on the AN-8 oil feed line after the filter and cooler _________________ Turbo 2276 MS3X build http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673125
1985 Vanagon Campmobile w/ 2005 EJ25 |
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theDrew Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2011 Posts: 1155 Location: Camas, WA
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Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:42 pm Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build |
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finally got around to swapping the pressure plate.
Doing a Stage 2 with a diakin disc.
pulled off the flywheel, inspected the thrust bearing, changed the main seal and checked the end play. Nice to see its still where I set it.
all the wires, hoses and sensors make pulling the engine a bit of a chore!
_________________ Turbo 2276 MS3X build http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=673125
1985 Vanagon Campmobile w/ 2005 EJ25 |
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clonebug Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2005 Posts: 4027 Location: NW Washington
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Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2018 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build |
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Make sure you try to test the disc and pressure plate before putting it back together.
I tried a Daiken Disc with the Stage II PP and it slipped almost as bad as the Stage I with my CB Super Disc.
I ended up taking the engine out again and testing the discs with a torque wrench and transmission input shaft that I welded a big nut onto the end.
The Stage I and CB super disc held 165 ft. lbs torque on the wrench.
The Stage II and Daiken disc held 175 ft. lbs. torque on the wrench.
I ended up using the Stage II and my original CB Super Disc and adding 0.031 inch shims between the PP and the Fly wheel.
That brought the holding torque all the way up to 250 ft. lbs. on the wrench which also maxed the wrench out...... and it hasn't slipped at 24 lbs boost.
I just pull the body on my buggy to make it much easier for my old lard *ss to work on it.
There is NO room to get at anything without doing that.
_________________
vwracerdave wrote: |
Take a good long look in the mirror and report back on what you see. |
Paul.H wrote: |
That one line on that chart is probably better info than you can get from this place in a month |
My Megasquirt Fuel Injection Turbo Buggy Build
Water/Alcohol Injection
Audi TT intercooler
Upgraded to MS3Pro-Evo
EcuMaster PMU16
ECUMaster ADU5 Digital Dash
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=127936 |
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d5626 Samba Member
Joined: December 09, 2008 Posts: 154 Location: Pomona
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Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Down the rabbit hole -- 2276 MS3X Turbo build |
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Mine slipped a little above 12psi when using the stage2 w/daiken, what a pain pulling motor again to put in the cb disk. No problem since. |
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