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914 motor replacement
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Mittens
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:33 pm    Post subject: 914 motor replacement Reply with quote

hey guys and gals! Smile

I've been toying with the idea of getting a 914 to fix up and stuff. however, I ran into a issue (at least to me) the flat four that's in there seems to be hard to find as a replacement . so I was wondering if anyone here has dropped in a VW type 1 motor. I ask because I found a company that has brand new turn keys

I know this motors will fit in the 912 rather easily but I dont know if it'll fix in the 914

I have included a link to the website... any help would be appreciated it.

http://www.cbperformance.com/Turnkey-Engines-s/138.htm
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:28 pm    Post subject: Re: 914 motor replacement Reply with quote

Mittens wrote:
hey guys and gals! Smile

I've been toying with the idea of getting a 914 to fix up and stuff. however, I ran into a issue (at least to me) the flat four that's in there seems to be hard to find as a replacement . so I was wondering if anyone here has dropped in a VW type 1 motor. I ask because I found a company that has brand new turn keys

I know this motors will fit in the 912 rather easily but I dont know if it'll fix in the 914

I have included a link to the website... any help would be appreciated it.

http://www.cbperformance.com/Turnkey-Engines-s/138.htm


Type 4 engines for 914 are not hard to find at all. They are just more expensive. And they do not have to be as expensive as Porsche specific shops charge for them. Outside of the Porsche specific 2.0L.....there are "0" significant differences between the 1.7 and 1.8L engines in the VW 411 and 412.

If all you want to do is make it roll....sure...go for it. I would never trade a type 1 engine for a type 4 engine though.

Do it right and have your engine rebuilt or do it yourself. Ray
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Mittens
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:52 pm    Post subject: Re: 914 motor replacement Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
Mittens wrote:
hey guys and gals! Smile

I've been toying with the idea of getting a 914 to fix up and stuff. however, I ran into a issue (at least to me) the flat four that's in there seems to be hard to find as a replacement . so I was wondering if anyone here has dropped in a VW type 1 motor. I ask because I found a company that has brand new turn keys

I know this motors will fit in the 912 rather easily but I dont know if it'll fix in the 914

I have included a link to the website... any help would be appreciated it.

http://www.cbperformance.com/Turnkey-Engines-s/138.htm


Type 4 engines for 914 are not hard to find at all. They are just more expensive. And they do not have to be as expensive as Porsche specific shops charge for them. Outside of the Porsche specific 2.0L.....there are "0" significant differences between the 1.7 and 1.8L engines in the VW 411 and 412.

If all you want to do is make it roll....sure...go for it. I would never trade a type 1 engine for a type 4 engine though.

Do it right and have your engine rebuilt or do it yourself. Ray



maybe I'm looking in the wrong places for the Type 4 motor then. I seemly find all of the Type 1 constantly.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 11:08 am    Post subject: Re: 914 motor replacement Reply with quote

Mittens wrote:
raygreenwood wrote:
Mittens wrote:
hey guys and gals! Smile

I've been toying with the idea of getting a 914 to fix up and stuff. however, I ran into a issue (at least to me) the flat four that's in there seems to be hard to find as a replacement . so I was wondering if anyone here has dropped in a VW type 1 motor. I ask because I found a company that has brand new turn keys

I know this motors will fit in the 912 rather easily but I dont know if it'll fix in the 914

I have included a link to the website... any help would be appreciated it.

http://www.cbperformance.com/Turnkey-Engines-s/138.htm


Type 4 engines for 914 are not hard to find at all. They are just more expensive. And they do not have to be as expensive as Porsche specific shops charge for them. Outside of the Porsche specific 2.0L.....there are "0" significant differences between the 1.7 and 1.8L engines in the VW 411 and 412.

If all you want to do is make it roll....sure...go for it. I would never trade a type 1 engine for a type 4 engine though.

Do it right and have your engine rebuilt or do it yourself. Ray



maybe I'm looking in the wrong places for the Type 4 motor then. I seemly find all of the Type 1 constantly.



There were many. many less type 4 engined vehicles made. While there are quite a few type 4 conversions going on over the years of type 4 engines into type 1 and 3 based vehicles.....the range of vehicles that the type 4 engine actually came in are 411, 412, 914 and late bay bus....and this is not really including the type 4 "based" engines that went into vanagon and late Porsche 912

There are about an even handful of trustworthy shops that build type 4 for the late bus as that is the most numerous vehicle that used them.

That being said...a type 4 engine built to "bus specs"...is not useful for a 914, 411 or 412.

They are different enough from a type 1 that the huge range of people that build type 1 engines rarely build type 4...and they have less parts availability and specific needs that are different than type 1...so just being an experienced type 1 based engine builder does not immediately qualify one to PROPERLY build a type 4.

So...yes....the number of shops that actually SPECIALIZE in type 4 are limited.

Companies that could offer a rebuilt engine:

European Motorworks....enquire first...http://www.europeanmotorworks.com/

Headflow masters http://www.headflowmasters.com/
...probably one of your most affordable good quality sources.

Fat Performance ... for sure..... www.fatperformance.com

The type 4 store....dont know about a "turnkey" engine but they would be the best source for the ultimate quality "KIT" www.type4store.com

Raby's Aircooled technology....yes...the ultimate type 4 engine builder on the continent. It will cost you...big time...but will be worth every penny. Jake Raby designed most of the parts and engine packages for the Type 4 store. http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/

There are probably a few others. However...there are also those that will build you a type 4 engine and if they do not have experience (especially with differences in cases and head work) and are not discerning in their parts selection....you can have issues.

That being said...there sis a LOT of difference in a type 4 and a type 1. The bottom end on type 4 is bullet proof...has improved oil galley design over anything other than NEW aluminum and magnesium type 1 cases...has full flow filter from the factory...a well proven crank mounted cooling system, larger oil cooler...and typically are designed to run at highway speeds without fear of overheating...and typically have twice the lifespan of anything type 1 based (bus use not included)....except for a new, well built aluminum cased type 1.....when built properly.

Also...if you go for a type 1 in a 914...you will have issues with sheet metal, exhaust reach because the engine in 914 is mid engined...as well as you will probably either have to use a Raby DTM cooling system modified to fit 914...or will have to use the type 3 cooling system...so essentially you will have at type 3 engine in the car.

Not many people other than those with a "Jake Raby" budget are looking for a "turnkey" engine in a type 4 based car....this is why you do not find them much.

You would be better served to rebuild what you have either with a type 4 store kit and heads from HAM inc....or send what you have to Adrian at Headflow masters. Either way...neither will be "turnkey". You will have to put your intake, exhaust, power and manifolds back on, break it in and tune it.

Jake Raby would build you an ultimate turnkey engine. The cost would probably be somewhere ...just guessing....north of $12,000. Ray
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Mittens
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:01 pm    Post subject: Re: 914 motor replacement Reply with quote

wow.. that's pretty fucking neat of this information.


with that being said, I thank you for pointing to the websites.

I also had no idea on the details of the Type 4 motor, that's actually interesting that it was built for highway use with little to no fear of it overheating.

I did take into consideration that sheet metal of the Type 1s, but never about the exhaust.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 2:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 914 motor replacement Reply with quote

Mittens wrote:
wow.. that's pretty fucking neat of this information.


with that being said, I thank you for pointing to the websites.

I also had no idea on the details of the Type 4 motor, that's actually interesting that it was built for highway use with little to no fear of it overheating.

I did take into consideration that sheet metal of the Type 1s, but never about the exhaust.


Not that it was built specifically for highway use.....but that it can run long miles in high heat without need to cool down.

It is in reality.....the first 100% redesign of excellent the original type 1 design of the 1930s.

There are a lot of advantages in the type 4 design....mind you this is with stock and just above stock in mind.....stronger case material, the better oiling system, larger oil cooler, stronger crank and crank mounting system, no need or issues for case savers for the head studs, no issues with cracking behind #3 cylinder, the cooling system....no fan belt.....a whole slew of little details.

When you get up into the first few stages of high performance builds.....say in the 130-150 hp range......even though it still has better case material and a rock solid bottom end.....a lot of these benefits get evened out because you can spend enough money and buy enough parts to largely get most of the upgrades with a type 1. Ray
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Wolfgangdieter
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:05 pm    Post subject: Re: 914 motor replacement Reply with quote

With Ray on either keeping it T4 - even lowest hp one is 76 hp but easy to boost to 100 hp. Just do a global CL search on 914 engine or T4. Lots of rebuildable cores for $250-400.

Personally, I'd look for a Subaru EJ22 H water-cooled engine and put it in the 914. 130 hp for base engine but easy to get 160 hp out of it. Expect about $2k for conversion - close to a T4 core rebuild.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 10:06 pm    Post subject: Re: 914 motor replacement Reply with quote

Wolfgangdieter wrote:
With Ray on either keeping it T4 - even lowest hp one is 76 hp but easy to boost to 100 hp. Just do a global CL search on 914 engine or T4. Lots of rebuildable cores for $250-400.

Personally, I'd look for a Subaru EJ22 H water-cooled engine and put it in the 914. 130 hp for base engine but easy to get 160 hp out of it. Expect about $2k for conversion - close to a T4 core rebuild.


Agree. If you are going to do something....non type 4...non 914....a jump to a subaru woule be far better than a type 1.

That being said......the 76hp engine was a California smog motor. The baseline 1.7L was 80-82hp. The 1.8 was detuned and barely put out that much....but a simple bump in conpression and a new cam on the 1.8 even with stock injection can yield 90+hp with good tuning. I have gotten better than that on a,1.7L with better compression, better exhaust, cam and ignition. With a tuned and upgraded factory 2.0L....120hp is possible. But for the cost of a factory 2.0L.....you can do aftermarket version of that....even better...and get about 15-20 more hp and far better reliability.

Ray
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Mittens
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2017 9:13 am    Post subject: Re: 914 motor replacement Reply with quote

Wolfgangdieter wrote:
With Ray on either keeping it T4 - even lowest hp one is 76 hp but easy to boost to 100 hp. Just do a global CL search on 914 engine or T4. Lots of rebuildable cores for $250-400.

Personally, I'd look for a Subaru EJ22 H water-cooled engine and put it in the 914. 130 hp for base engine but easy to get 160 hp out of it. Expect about $2k for conversion - close to a T4 core rebuild.



I've seen the Subaru conversion, and even an LS* Converse but I'd like to keep the motor 'in the family'

but I appreciate the response
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914guy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:47 am    Post subject: Re: 914 motor replacement Reply with quote

Here in Ohio, I found a replacement type 4 for my bus for $400. I did not expect it to be good but we have been running it for 3 years.

I happened across a rebuilt 1.7 for my 76 914 for $600.

So, 914 motors are around. Samba and 914 world are good places to find them plus Craigslist.

Mike
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:24 am    Post subject: Re: 914 motor replacement Reply with quote

914guy wrote:
Here in Ohio, I found a replacement type 4 for my bus for $400. I did not expect it to be good but we have been running it for 3 years.

I happened across a rebuilt 1.7 for my 76 914 for $600.

So, 914 motors are around. Samba and 914 world are good places to find them plus Craigslist.

Mike


Yes...its always worth looking...but carefully!

About 99% of all who rebuild type 4's .....outside of the handful of places I mentioned...and specific people on these forums and the STF...with known type 4 experience........I would NOT trust a rebuilt type 4 from.

Too many inexperienced owners treat these engines like type 1 engines.

What I mean by that....is they do not do ALL of what is required.
For example: items like replacing ALLof the valves at high miles...AND valve seats and guides...ALWAYS.

And...replacing the stock cam AND lifters...ALWAYS (the stock cams were barely adequate design wise...hot running)....and are ALL DEFECTIVE from wear pattern at high miles.

And having the engine properly balanced....

AND...installing double thrust cam bearings....a proven over time requirement.

Lots of little details.

Why is this a problem...and why is this treating these engines like a type 1 engine?....because due to the comparatively huge amount of type 1 engines manufactured compared to type 4.....the average first time build newbie, the average "get-er-done" shade tree mechanic, the broke college kid owner and the average non professional type 1 builder.....do some, all or many of these "cost cutting/corner cutting" methods on type 1 engines because they are CHEAP....easy to get NEW parts for....and are not really expected to go much over 50k miles without some refurb.
If you treat type 4 engines that way...it gets $$$$ fast.

If a type 1 stocker drops a valve at 50k on a basic stockish type 1....its not a great loss. Many more out there and the build cost is not high. Many new parts available including BRAND NEW cranks and cases.

This is not the case with type 4. A complete used type 4 engine (sheet metal and all)...is a great deal at $600....but if you want longevity...and lack of risk....its considered a "core" until proven otherwise unless I know the builder and what he put into it...and most important...how good his assembly techniques are.
I buy a running core type 4 engine....it gets stripped to parts...cleaned, measured and reassembled with new gaskets and seals. Ray
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