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epowell
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Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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 Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:34 am Post subject: Front Suspension: how far to go & how to proceed? |
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Currently with the front of my van "UP & GUTTED" obviously it is the right time to tackle long over-due front suspension work. The van's alignment is excellent and rides smooth on smooth roads, but any kind of bump is FELT, and on a bumpy road the whole van bumps and shakes a lot.
Right now I URGENTLY MUST replace the Radius Rod bushings and this will require an alignment therefore I might as well do everything else that even needs doing even if not in critical condition but worn badly.
I currently need these bushings and already have new ones here:
1) Radius Rod bushings (4 total)
2) Swaybar to Body bushings (2 total)
3) Swaybar end bushings (4 total --- plus need new washers which are missing)
4) Steering rack to body bushings (4 total)
Here are some fotos of other bushings that are questionable:
Passenger Side Lower Controlling Arm (LCA) bushings:
Sway Bar end bushing (missing washer) and 3 nuts holding Radius Rod
Upper ball joint (boot looks good so probably ball joint is good?)
Lower ball joint (boot looks good so probably ball joint is also good?)
...bit of rust on Spring
Upper Controlling Arm (UCA) bushing... looks reasonable?
DRIVERS SIDE: looks all basically the same but a tiny bit more rusty:
Right now I am reading all I can find on the topic, and absorbing all the vids that are out there... If anyone can recommend any good threads or step by step tutorials, I'd really appreciate...
...but the first things is to decide exactly what to do. My current estimate is this:
1) remove LCA, RR, and Sway bar and replace all these bushings
...anything else?
THANKS!!
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Pcforno
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Joined: October 14, 2014
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Location: Santa Fe, nm
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:28 am Post subject: Re: Front Suspension: how far to go & how to proceed? |
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| Well you may not like the answer, but I would rebuild your entire front end. From the pics, nearly everything is showing it's age and is worn. It's far easier and less work to just bite the bullet and do it all at once. Do the bushings, ball joints, tie rod ends, shocks, wheel bearings, everything. It will be a bigger job, but save you a lot of headaches later. The Bentley pretty much has everything you need to know to do this. Good luck! |
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Yondermtn
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Joined: November 21, 2007
Posts: 609
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:44 am Post subject: Re: Front Suspension: how far to go & how to proceed? |
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I'd add the upper control arm bushings and upper ball joints for sure.
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epowell
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Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 7:57 am Post subject: Re: Front Suspension: how far to go & how to proceed? |
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| Pcforno wrote: |
| Well you may not like the answer, but I would rebuild your entire front end. From the pics, nearly everything is showing it's age and is worn. It's far easier and less work to just bite the bullet and do it all at once. Do the bushings, ball joints, tie rod ends, shocks, wheel bearings, everything. It will be a bigger job, but save you a lot of headaches later. The Bentley pretty much has everything you need to know to do this. Good luck! |
I understand and see that simply ripping everything out and replacing with new would be quicker and easier but is that the only advantage? It seems to me that the metal hardware is all still very solid... what would be wrong with removing it all, cleaning it all up and painting it >>> other than this being time consuming? Furthermore I have heard that the aftermarket stuff is inferior to original stuff so that keeping still-solid hardware would make sense on that front as well.
Also, I have no idea about the availability and cost of this hardware > I need to check this. I'm not ruling out a total rebuild.... just mulling it over.
Also, don't the boots on the ball joints look brand new? The PO said he recently put on new front shocks, and my guess is that he replaced the ball joints at the same time (why would he just put on new boots only?)
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epowell
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Joined: September 23, 2015
Posts: 4733
Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Front Suspension: how far to go & how to proceed? |
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Just went out to check the hardware and take more pics.... to me all four control arms look in excellent condition, and would seem silly to replace > unless I am missing the point here somewhere?
The springs and various rods have a certain amount of surface rust - but I think cleaning and painting would make them fine (again... am I missing the point??).
Regarding the ball joints... I guess they are about $25 each X4 = $100 which is not prohibitive.
At the moment I am leaning towards taking everything out, and replacing ALL bushings and probably ball joints (unless once out it is obvious that they are new).
I also should do the front brakes as well..... new rotors etc... at the same time.
Here are pics of the hardware...
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joetiger 
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Location: denver
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Front Suspension: how far to go & how to proceed? |
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| epowell wrote: |
It seems to me that the metal hardware is all still very solid... what would be wrong with removing it all, cleaning it all up and painting it >>> other than this being time consuming? |
Why would you replace the metal bits? Replace all of the bushings. This kit will give you a good idea of everything you need.
http://www.van-cafe.com/home/van/page_943
There are several threads here that were of invaluable guidance to me last year when I did my front end rebuild:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=604528
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=534970&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
I can honestly say that outside of my Suby conversion, this was the best upgrade I've ever done. It's very, VERY satisfying to have your front end behave like a brand new vehicle. I had lots of bloody knuckles and sore muscles, but it was totally worth it.
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Joe T.
'86 NAHT Vanagon GL Syncro/ supercharged ABA 2.0 "Pigpen"
'04 GTI 1.8T
'04 Golf R32
"get metaphysical with it. if it's simply a means to get to and from places, it will let you down. if it becomes your zen, it can't fail you." -dabaron
"Still, it's good to be afield."--VWagabond
Available Now! Vanagon to Louisiana--A Two-Lane Reckoning Through Past and Present
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Pcforno
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Location: Santa Fe, nm
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:31 am Post subject: Re: Front Suspension: how far to go & how to proceed? |
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| Not necessarily recomeding replacing "hardware" just the bushings and ball joints and tie rods ends. There's nothing wrong with the sway bar or drop links or control arms - nobody replaces these unless there's a structural defect, and some items are extremely difficult to find, even used. I'm jut talking UCA bushings, LCA bushings, UBJ, LBJ, tie rod ends, steering rack bushings, wheel bearings and seals, sway bar bushings |
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epowell
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Joined: September 23, 2015
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Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Front Suspension: how far to go & how to proceed? |
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| Pcforno wrote: |
| Not necessarily recomeding replacing "hardware" just the bushings and ball joints and tie rods ends. There's nothing wrong with the sway bar or drop links or control arms - nobody replaces these unless there's a structural defect, and some items are extremely difficult to find, even used. I'm jut talking UCA bushings, LCA bushings, UBJ, LBJ, tie rod ends, steering rack bushings, wheel bearings and seals, sway bar bushings |
AHA!! Misunderstanding -- just that I have recently seen folks replacing all hardware as well....
Yes I agree... it is good to replace all that stuff you just mentioned!
From what I now know it seems that the most difficult part is dealing with the SPRING--- getting it out, and back on... I will research now.
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joetiger
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Front Suspension: how far to go & how to proceed? |
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| epowell wrote: |
From what I now know it seems that the most difficult part is dealing with the SPRING--- getting it out, and back on... I will research now. |
Once you have all of the suspension parts loosened up (and some removed,) the spring will come out easily. Same thing going back in. For safety's sake you definitely want to make sure that the spring is not under any tension when you're pulling it out. You don't want it releasing tension and hitting you. That would be bad.
One thing about front suspension work, especially when rust and corrosion is present and potentially seized bolts are involved, is that you really have no idea yet what the most difficult part will be!
Read through those two threads I linked above, then read them four more times. Then print them for reference!  There are a lot of front suspension threads here for you to research, but those two helped me the most.
This is a very satisfying job that you can definitely do, but for me at least it required study beforehand and problem-solving while in the middle of it.
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Joe T.
'86 NAHT Vanagon GL Syncro/ supercharged ABA 2.0 "Pigpen"
'04 GTI 1.8T
'04 Golf R32
"get metaphysical with it. if it's simply a means to get to and from places, it will let you down. if it becomes your zen, it can't fail you." -dabaron
"Still, it's good to be afield."--VWagabond
Available Now! Vanagon to Louisiana--A Two-Lane Reckoning Through Past and Present
www.josephtrussell.com |
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Pcforno
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:37 am Post subject: Re: Front Suspension: how far to go & how to proceed? |
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| Get a "clamshell" type spring compressor |
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epowell
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:38 am Post subject: Re: Front Suspension: how far to go & how to proceed? |
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Thanks so much for these links and encouragement!! I am really looking forward to doing this.
Did you do anything about the steering also?
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epowell
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Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Front Suspension: how far to go & how to proceed? |
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Great! Thanks...
Main consideration right now is TIME... ...in 2 months I need to take the van for a govt tech control test here in Czech... if I now undertake a full front rebuild including rotors, bearings, calipers... if I work full time, can I finish it in a month? (subjective question I know! ...but I am wondering if perhaps this time before the tech test ought to be spent on other areas. I should put in a new turbo, and replace rear backing plates to get the e-brake working. Also replace the slider door handle... otherwise I think the van is ok.)
OH!!!! Forgot to mention that I MIGHT have a blown head gasket >>> meaning, that the whole reason for stripping down the front was to remove the RAD cuz of overheating which I now greatly suspect could be a HEAD problem (air getting into the coolant) > so if I have a problem with the head this will take time to fix also....
Last question.... do I need the clam shell out in order to do this suspension work? If not then I could finish up with the RAD work and then at least see if I have a HEAD problem - and if not I would have much more time to then do the FRONT stuff.... ....on the other hand, the clam shell take all of 5 min. to remove  OK, now I'm rambling 
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Last edited by epowell on Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:12 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Pcforno
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:10 am Post subject: Re: Front Suspension: how far to go & how to proceed? |
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| Well the first side of you've never done it before may take a full day of work, perhaps a day and a half. Second side goes twice as fast. Having all the tools and parts prior to starting helps, if not it may take much longer |
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Vanagon Nut
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:13 am Post subject: Re: Front Suspension: how far to go & how to proceed? |
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Hi Ed.
I had a quick look at your pics here and in your other thread. If youre replacing the lower control arm bushings and not replaxing the lower ball joint....
Consider removing the LCA, steering knuckle and radius rod as a unit. ie if the nuts holding the radius rod to the control arm are super rusty, since theyre lock nuts, there is a risk that while removing a nut, a bolt could snap. BTDT, glad i had a spare lower control arm!  If want to remove the radius rod from the LCA, turn each nut a little bit at a time.
Neil
Image of what i mean. This is of my 81 westy.
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dobryan
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davevickery
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:41 am Post subject: Re: Front Suspension: how far to go & how to proceed? |
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Look on youtube for some videos of someone removing springs, or redoing bushings. It shows you way more than a thread with just pictures and you can see how quickly they do things.
You can leave the spare tire clam shell in place but either way that is 5 minutes to take out and might give you space to work on different things.
You dont need a spring compressor for the front end of a 2wd van unless you are putting in longer springs. When you lower remove the upper ball joint bolts and the bolts holding the brrake caliber on, and loosen the radius rod bolts, it will come down far enough that the spring will fall out. A big screw driver is all you need to put new one back in to give it just a big of leverage.
If ball joint boots look fine, I wouldn't bother with ball joints. There is nothing wrong with working on the van in small parts. Trying to get everything done when you are new at it can be daunting even if you save a little time.
Find some youtube videos and it will all seem pretty simple. |
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epowell
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Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:51 am Post subject: Re: Front Suspension: how far to go & how to proceed? |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
I had a quick look at your pics here and in your other thread. If you're replacing the lower control arm bushings and not replacing the lower ball joint.... Consider removing the LCA, steering knuckle and radius rod as a unit. |
| dobryan wrote: |
| One of the ball joints takes quite a big press to get it off if I recall correctly. |
Well, I don't know if I'm being stupid or not but why are those boots brand new on the ball joints??? Maybe the PO only replaced bad boots?? Possible I guess... but I'd guess he changed the ball joints when he replaced the shocks recently.
I also heard that the lower ball joint is a Mother to replace...
...I know how a seemingly simple job for a newby can mushroom into a can of worms... and having a serious potential time limit - the best tactic can be to do the most I can in the simplest way possible>>>
>>> Neil, that's why your suggestion seems to me like GOLD! That way I could easily remove that whole complex of hardware at once and still replace the really crucially bushings! THANKS!!!
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epowell
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:52 am Post subject: Re: Front Suspension: how far to go & how to proceed? |
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| Pcforno wrote: |
| Well the first side of you've never done it before may take a full day of work, perhaps a day and a half. Second side goes twice as fast. Having all the tools and parts prior to starting helps, if not it may take much longer |
Ahhh... that's comforting
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epowell
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Location: Czech (mostly) Vancouver (sometimes)
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 11:57 am Post subject: Re: Front Suspension: how far to go & how to proceed? |
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| davevickery wrote: |
Look on youtube for some videos of someone removing springs, or redoing bushings. It shows you way more than a thread with just pictures and you can see how quickly they do things.
You can leave the spare tire clam shell in place but either way that is 5 minutes to take out and might give you space to work on different things.
You dont need a spring compressor for the front end of a 2wd van unless you are putting in longer springs. When you lower remove the upper ball joint bolts and the bolts holding the brrake caliber on, and loosen the radius rod bolts, it will come down far enough that the spring will fall out. A big screw driver is all you need to put new one back in to give it just a big of leverage.
If ball joint boots look fine, I wouldn't bother with ball joints. There is nothing wrong with working on the van in small parts. Trying to get everything done when you are new at it can be daunting even if you save a little time.
Find some youtube videos and it will all seem pretty simple. |
THANKS! ...this makes sense and it is coming together now in my minds eye what to do (and how).
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Vanagon Nut
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Front Suspension: how far to go & how to proceed? |
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| epowell wrote: |
>>> Neil, that's why your suggestion seems to me like GOLD! That way I could easily remove that whole complex of hardware at once and still replace the really crucially bushings! THANKS!!! |
The only caution id have is re assembly. Its been a while since i installed that "unit" but it is doable. IIRC, lining up the LCA to frame at bracket was challenging. If you think heat time and penatrating fluid will loosen the radius arm nuts, try that first. ..... Fair thee warned.
Neil.
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