| Author |
Message |
1973 412 WAGON
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2015
Posts: 68
Location: N.Dinwiddie VA
|
 Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 2:52 pm Post subject: Fuel Injectors |
 |
|
| Anybody have a good source for new Fuel injectors? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:43 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Injectors |
|
|
| 1973 412 WAGON wrote: |
| Anybody have a good source for new Fuel injectors? |
Oddly enough I do not....yet. its going to be enough tome before my engine is off the ground that I have not sourced new ones for years.
Rock auto has Beck Arnely rebuilds.....which I have used for years in the past.....for $67 each. They also have....depending on year but I am assuming its D-jet....have SMP....standard motor products injectors for the same price.
I checked O'reilleys site and they list Borg Warner (BWD) and SMP.....for about $20 more than Rockauto.
Napa has injectors....and all of these are based off of the 311 906 031B part #....Echlin b rand for $100 each.
You can also send your injectors out if they are not rusted and do not leak and do not have broken pintles.....and have them ultrasonically cleaned and tested. They may be almost as good as new at that point. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KTPhil 
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34012
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Injectors |
|
|
Stock type? Used ones come up for sale in the classifieds, and there are outfits that will clean and flow-test them. Yield is not 100% but it can be economical.
New ones are getting expensive. But googling the part number or description will usually show several sources.
Check this thread, which may lead you to some sources and awareness of some differences in injectors that may matter to you:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=645104
Note, I'm posting in the T4 forum, but my link was regarding my T3. The issues are the same, and suppliers are probably the same, but the particular injector part numbers are probably NOT.
Last edited by KTPhil on Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
1973 412 WAGON
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2015
Posts: 68
Location: N.Dinwiddie VA
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 3:53 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Injectors |
|
|
| Ray it is a 73, The rock auto ones will work? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34012
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Injectors |
|
|
So I have to ask, why do you think you need them?
If you have none and are building up a system, fine. But if your old ones are suspect, this is a good time to consider the rest of the fuel system. Again, my experience is on the Type 3, but I believe the same cautions and advice are valid for the Type 4 cars as well.
The fuel pump is mounted low, where fuel contaminants like dirt and water will accumulate. This will clog filters/screens, and wear/rust the pump and pressure regulator. A common entry point for water and dirt is the external filler hardware. The rubber rots and connections get loose, and since the tire will kick up water and dirt right in a path leading to those hoses.
For the Type 3, Jim Adney has a replacement kit, but I don't think it fits the Type 4. But he might be able to supply the clamps and hoses a bit long, and let you make it up to fit your car.
I suggest this because this situation probably kills more FI components than anything else on the Type 3. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Injectors |
|
|
| KTPhil wrote: |
So I have to ask, why do you think you need them?
If you have none and are building up a system, fine. But if your old ones are suspect, this is a good time to consider the rest of the fuel system. Again, my experience is on the Type 3, but I believe the same cautions and advice are valid for the Type 4 cars as well.
The fuel pump is mounted low, where fuel contaminants like dirt and water will accumulate. This will clog filters/screens, and wear/rust the pump and pressure regulator. A common entry point for water and dirt is the external filler hardware. The rubber rots and connections get loose, and since the tire will kick up water and dirt right in a path leading to those hoses.
For the Type 3, Jim Adney has a replacement kit, but I don't think it fits the Type 4. But he might be able to supply the clamps and hoses a bit long, and let you make it up to fit your car.
I suggest this because this situation probably kills more FI components than anything else on the Type 3. |
The most common killers of injectors....moisture on the pintles and moisture inside against the needle.
If they rust too much.....no cleaning will fix them.
The other issue aichave had....enough to be wary over thr years......pretty much many of the original ...menaing have not been rebuilt before......injectors....have just had too much t8me and abuse.
Unless they are well stored....oiled etc......to many have damage internally. The other damage that jhappens from injectors that sit on wrecks or non running cars for too long is that as water inside the fuel in injectors freezes and thaws and repeats it levers the yeelow heat sealed cap away from the back and sooner or later it starts to leak.
I am noting these things because I have just found too many issues over the years. If I possibly can from now on I will be installing new or rebuilt injectors.
There are companies that make new injectors in the right size, resistance and flow rate. Found some parts lists a few years back. I will see if I still have them. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34012
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:01 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Injectors |
|
|
Do Type 4 cars all use the same injectors over the years? Are they the same as Type 3 injectors?
Some info I found here:
| Quote: |
Bosch part no. 0 280 150 007
VW part no. 311 906 031B
Yellow injectors with those style electrical plugs, those are for type 3 1600 engines. That's why there's a 311 part number on there. The 411 also used that same style of D-Jetronic fuel injection and used the same style injectors. When VW went to AFC (L-Jetronic) style fuel injection in 1974, they used different injectors |
...but this says "same style" and that is not the same thing as "same part number," so this is not clear.
Maybe more MISinformation for this subject than information, but here it is:
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/Injectors.html |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Injectors |
|
|
| KTPhil wrote: |
Do Type 4 cars all use the same injectors over the years? Are they the same as Type 3 injectors?
Some info I found here:
| Quote: |
Bosch part no. 0 280 150 007
VW part no. 311 906 031B
Yellow injectors with those style electrical plugs, those are for type 3 1600 engines. That's why there's a 311 part number on there. The 411 also used that same style of D-Jetronic fuel injection and used the same style injectors. When VW went to AFC (L-Jetronic) style fuel injection in 1974, they used different injectors |
...but this says "same style" and that is not the same thing as "same part number," so this is not clear.
Maybe more MISinformation for this subject than information, but here it is:
http://www.ratwell.com/technical/Injectors.html |
Yes....they use the Bosch 0 280 150 007 and 009 yellow top injector. The difference in 007 and 009 (Bosch #s)....is that while both low impedance.....and both have the same flow rate.....the 009 has slightly higher impedance.....like 0.03 ohms higher. From what I understand it allows slightly cooler running/driving of the injector on cars that see higher rpm use (1.7L 914).....but otherwise are fully interchangeable with the 007.
The 007 is the 311 906 031....used on both type 3 1600 and 411/412 1.7L. I do not know the difference in the tail prefix A or B but I suspect it was a slight difference in the nose shape I saw from early to late and how it fit the pintle cover.
The last year of the 412 with the 1.8L used L-jet injection.....different injector as you know. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34012
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 9:07 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Injectors |
|
|
I have the set of injectors I bought for my Type 3 in late 2015. The units that arrived were the disc-type, and I chose to stick with the original style, though they were almost twice as expensive. I was chicken!
Ray seemed to think the disc type may have worked (correct me if I am wrong about this, Ray). I still have them, and they are not useful to me. I have 5. They are rebuilt by Beck/Arnley, and look perfect. They are higher flow than the standard injector (since I was going from 1585 to 1776cc).
They are part number:
155-0007
and are listed as fitting:
'73-'75 Mercedes 450SL 1.5L-V8
Anyone know if these fit any Type 4 cars? Probably not, unless you enlarged your motor and kept the FI. But if you have...
If these are what you are looking for (or anyone else reading this), I will sell them cheaper than you can find online. PM me, if interested. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:40 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Injectors |
|
|
| KTPhil wrote: |
I have the set of injectors I bought for my Type 3 in late 2015. The units that arrived were the disc-type, and I chose to stick with the original style, though they were almost twice as expensive. I was chicken!
Ray seemed to think the disc type may have worked (correct me if I am wrong about this, Ray). I still have them, and they are not useful to me. I have 5. They are rebuilt by Beck/Arnley, and look perfect. They are higher flow than the standard injector (since I was going from 1585 to 1776cc).
They are part number:
155-0007
and are listed as fitting:
'73-'75 Mercedes 450SL 1.5L-V8
Anyone know if these fit any Type 4 cars? Probably not, unless you enlarged your motor and kept the FI. But if you have...
If these are what you are looking for (or anyone else reading this), I will sell them cheaper than you can find online. PM me, if interested. |
Hmmm.....can you take a resistance reading from one? If they are close in flow rate.....Nd resistance is correct...they may work just fine. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Lars S
Samba Member
Joined: October 04, 2007
Posts: 785
Location: Sweden
|
| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:50 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Injectors |
|
|
Found a table online for the Bosch injectors.
http://bowlsby.net/914/Classic/zTN_FI_FuelInjectorSubstitutes.jpg
Lars S
_________________
Porsche 914 -72, Bahia Red daily driver 
VW411 2-d -70, White, sold 
VW412 4-d, -73, Gold Metallic, daily driver
Suzuki T500, -69, Candy Gold, sold
Suzuki K50, -77, Black, daily driver
BMW R69S -69, White, sold
Husqvarna 118cc, -47, Black, Sold |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:12 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Injectors |
|
|
Ah! Nice list! Thanks Lars!
Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34012
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 9:25 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Injectors |
|
|
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| KTPhil wrote: |
I have the set of injectors I bought for my Type 3 in late 2015. The units that arrived were the disc-type, and I chose to stick with the original style, though they were almost twice as expensive. I was chicken!
Ray seemed to think the disc type may have worked (correct me if I am wrong about this, Ray). I still have them, and they are not useful to me. I have 5. They are rebuilt by Beck/Arnley, and look perfect. They are higher flow than the standard injector (since I was going from 1585 to 1776cc).
They are part number:
155-0007
and are listed as fitting:
'73-'75 Mercedes 450SL 1.5L-V8
Anyone know if these fit any Type 4 cars? Probably not, unless you enlarged your motor and kept the FI. But if you have...
If these are what you are looking for (or anyone else reading this), I will sell them cheaper than you can find online. PM me, if interested. |
Hmmm.....can you take a resistance reading from one? If they are close in flow rate.....Nd resistance is correct...they may work just fine. Ray |
I will do so by the weekend. I can only measure resistance, not impedance. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
1973 412 WAGON
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2015
Posts: 68
Location: N.Dinwiddie VA
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 3:05 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Injectors |
|
|
| Thanks Guys for your input, fuel filter and pump and hoses have been replaced, She has a little stumble at idle and just wanted to replace the injectors, Might be the originals in there. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34012
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Injectors |
|
|
| Stock displacement on your motor? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
1973 412 WAGON
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2015
Posts: 68
Location: N.Dinwiddie VA
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Fuel Injectors |
|
|
| Yes stock |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34012
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:29 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Injectors |
|
|
| 1973 412 WAGON wrote: |
| Yes stock |
Ok, then mine will be too high a flow for your application.
But you've got all the info you need to find them. Good luck! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 8:01 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Injectors |
|
|
| KTPhil wrote: |
| 1973 412 WAGON wrote: |
| Yes stock |
Ok, then mine will be too high a flow for your application.
But you've got all the info you need to find them. Good luck! |
Actually....if we think what you have would work on a 1776....they can probably work just fine on a 1700....but will probably take an MPS tweak to get just right.
They appear to be.....from the application you list....equivalent to the Bosch 0 280 150 036 which is the 2.0 914 injector.
The operative diffdren e being that our 007 and 009 inje tors are rated at a mzximum 26 lbs/hr and those you listed for the 450SL, 280sl and Porsche 914 list 37 lbs hour. Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KTPhil
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006
Posts: 34012
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:37 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Injectors |
|
|
I presumed the higher maximum was due to a larger orifice, not just ultimate flow capability, so it would run quite a bit richer unless you tone down the mixture through the MPS. Indeed in my case, I found it ran quite rich even with the larger displacement and so I had to turn down the MPS quite a bit.
Looking at the injector table link, I found it odd the larger displacement engines did not universally use higher flow rate injectors. I suppose it has a lot to do with the overall calibration and sensitivity of the MPS, as well as the pule width ordered by the ECU. I would think a higher-revving motor of larger displacement should automatically need higher flow injectors, but this isn't quite so simple, is it? So a good A/F meter is needed to get the best benefit out of the change. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21519
Location: Oklahoma City
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 10:14 am Post subject: Re: Fuel Injectors |
|
|
| KTPhil wrote: |
I presumed the higher maximum was due to a larger orifice, not just ultimate flow capability, so it would run quite a bit richer unless you tone down the mixture through the MPS. Indeed in my case, I found it ran quite rich even with the larger displacement and so I had to turn down the MPS quite a bit.
Looking at the injector table link, I found it odd the larger displacement engines did not universally use higher flow rate injectors. I suppose it has a lot to do with the overall calibration and sensitivity of the MPS, as well as the pule width ordered by the ECU. I would think a higher-revving motor of larger displacement should automatically need higher flow injectors, but this isn't quite so simple, is it? So a good A/F meter is needed to get the best benefit out of the change. |
This is what messes with a lot of people...tuners...online forum mechanics (like us) 
You see it in the supercharging and boost forums "X injector flow rate will support XXXX hp"... 
The difference in the 036 for the 914 2.0....which also fits in numerous V-8 engine...compared to the 007 and 009.......is NOT anything to do with pintle size.
Externally they are identical injectors. They "may" have a slightly different angle ground on the pintle seat area....and sometimes are capable of slightly higher lift of the pintle...which when added with that sharper angle on the pintle seat....exposes a larger ring of open area.
That difference may be about 1/10,000 of a square inch. Think of it like a donut with an outer circumference of .020" and an inner hole of about .003"...for a 007 injector (type 3 and 4)...and on the 914 and Mercedes injector....the 036.....its a donut with an outer circumference of .020"...and an inner hole diameter of .005".
What I do know for sure is that the real difference in the 007 and the 036 is in the capability of the solenoid to run longer pulsewidths....meaning it can lift slightly higher and hold open longer without overheating the ECU driver.
You see this in the slightly higher resistance of the 009 and 036 injector.
So...larger displacment feeding ability is more about the ability of the injector to work with the longer pulsewidths that the ECU and MPS for the larger engines will feed to it.
So really...it will always be about tweaking the MPS. There is no direct fit injector to just move up a notch in fueling.
Along with this....its worthwhile to remember...and about 100% of the Porsche 914 guys I have seen have NO IDEA of this....but the magical unicorn like mythical...unobtanium Bosch 022 906 049 MPS for 914....is actually....identical...to the 022 906 051E for the 411/412. It simply has:
A. A slightly different adjustment to the main armature screw and
B. The spacer ring that is inside between the copper diaphragm and the body of the MPS...is simply flipped to the other side. That IS the actual adjustment right there.
It technically recalculates the inner full load stop allowing slightly higher part throttle enrichment....longer pulsewdiths from what is otherwise teh same system.
Before I forget...this is a really good chart...scroll down the page. http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tableifc.htm
This is somewhat interesting as well
http://www.robietherobot.com/storm/fuelinjectorguide.htm
Ray |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
