| Author |
Message |
frankbonatelli
Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Alberta
|
 Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:02 pm Post subject: AAR full open or not? |
 |
|
So here is my question.
As it states in the subject line. Is it open 1/2 3/4 or is that full open.
--------
So I have cold engine no idle issue. Been in the shop for weeks now and ever nite i replace vac lines and tighten all my clamps that i have put on every single hose i can find.
Yes Ive follow the DigiFant pdf and as far as I can tell things are looking like an AAR needs to be replaced however before i spend 200 and if i can find one i thought id ask if any one knows how open is open.
================================================
Open room temp say 5C (is this full open or 1/2 open)
--------
Closed after 15 mins in oven @ 200F (Yup closed)
--------
Open after 30 mins in freezer at -6C (again after 30mins is this full OPEN)
--------
AAR from 1985 Vanagon AdventureWagon
=================================================
Really that's all I'm looking for, some form of confirmation of its state at cold temp. If it is not fully opening that's a clear decision to replace it.
Any thoughts?[/img]
_________________
============
---Vandalorian---
!!This is the way!!
============ |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: AAR full open or not? |
|
|
| If the engine starts, idles well, and doesn't stall readily when driven cold then the AAR is doing its job. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
1988M5
Samba Member
Joined: January 23, 2016
Posts: 674
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: AAR full open or not? |
|
|
From your photos, it's fully closing when hot but not fully opening (bypassing the throttle) when cold. From late 80's memory dealing with early CIS injection, the "warm-up valve" was completely open when cold. Seeing that your valve does move and being realistic, the amount it opens when cold should be enough to keep you from stalling out. You may need to raise you base idle screw more open.
BK
_________________
1991 tin top GL
2002 Winnebago Vista. VW VR6 24V Eurovan front clip powered class C 21' RV.
Some BMWs. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
frankbonatelli
Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Alberta
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: AAR full open or not? |
|
|
| Wildthings wrote: |
| If the engine starts, idles well, and doesn't stall readily when driven cold then the AAR is doing its job. |
No sir, it will NOT idle when cold. It stumbles till eventually it stalls. I had a lot of loose hose fittings and when i first started the hunt i couldn't even make it to the back of the van to catch it before stalling. Now after all hoses have been replaced and clamped tightly I can at least reach the rear and catch it before she stalls out. If i let it stumble along eventually it stalls. As it warms up it gets stronger till warm and then its runs like a top.
I really don't want to adjust idle because it ran for two years smoothly with out issue.
_________________
============
---Vandalorian---
!!This is the way!!
============ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
frankbonatelli
Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Alberta
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:05 pm Post subject: Re: AAR full open or not? |
|
|
| 1988M5 wrote: |
From your photos, it's fully closing when hot but not fully opening (bypassing the throttle) when cold. From late 80's memory dealing with early CIS injection, the "warm-up valve" was completely open when cold. Seeing that your valve does move and being realistic, the amount it opens when cold should be enough to keep you from stalling out. You may need to raise you base idle screw more open.
BK |
I would agree with you on that note if it had not been running so dam smoothly for the past few years of summer and winter driving. It has been an amazing van running problem free since purchase! So if that's the case and its good enough to stay running even in -6C or lower I guess i must move on in the hunt. If i find a wrecker part i may test swap one.
Thanks for your input.
_________________
============
---Vandalorian---
!!This is the way!!
============ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: AAR full open or not? |
|
|
| frankbonatelli wrote: |
| Wildthings wrote: |
| If the engine starts, idles well, and doesn't stall readily when driven cold then the AAR is doing its job. |
No sir, it will NOT idle when cold. It stumbles till eventually it stalls. I had a lot of loose hose fittings and when i first started the hunt i couldn't even make it to the back of the van to catch it before stalling. Now after all hoses have been replaced and clamped tightly I can at least reach the rear and catch it before she stalls out. If i let it stumble along eventually it stalls. As it warms up it gets stronger till warm and then its runs like a top.
I really don't want to adjust idle because it ran for two years smoothly with out issue. |
Spray it with choke cleaner and see what that does. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
frankbonatelli
Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Alberta
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 8:38 pm Post subject: Re: AAR full open or not? |
|
|
| Quote: |
| Spray it with choke cleaner and see what that does. |
Yea did that. Gave it a thorough cleaning
Thanks for the input tho.
_________________
============
---Vandalorian---
!!This is the way!!
============ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2022 9:32 pm Post subject: Re: AAR full open or not? |
|
|
| frankbonatelli wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Spray it with choke cleaner and see what that does. |
Yea did that. Gave it a thorough cleaning
Thanks for the input tho. |
Now maybe hit it with some quality lube so it keeps working
Last edited by Wildthings on Sat Jan 29, 2022 11:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BrownLoaf
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2021
Posts: 94
Location: Bellingham, WA
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 7:36 am Post subject: Re: AAR full open or not? |
|
|
Looks pretty similar to mine after a full chill in the freezer:
The AAR is a simple mechanism and I believe failures are uncommon. IIRC it's simply an electrically resistant element that when receiving 12 volts (engine on) heats up, expands/rotates, which rotates the air disc into the closed position. The disc is only in an open position when ambient temperatures are low enough. Closure is dependent on the time the engine has been running and how cold (how far open the disc) was to begin with. So there isn't a lot that can go wrong.
_________________
83.5 Vanagon Riviera WBX 2.2 "Brown Loaf"
87 Vanagon Syncro Tin Top WBX 2.1 "Bubbles"
Last edited by BrownLoaf on Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
frankbonatelli
Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Alberta
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:29 am Post subject: Re: AAR full open or not? |
|
|
| loganthecyclist wrote: |
| Looks pretty similar to mine after a full chill in the freezer. |
That's exactly what I needed to see! If yours has been running fine and it looks identical to mine I need to look elsewhere for this cold engine no idle issue.
Thanks for the visual clarity!!
_________________
============
---Vandalorian---
!!This is the way!!
============ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BrownLoaf
Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2021
Posts: 94
Location: Bellingham, WA
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 10:27 am Post subject: Re: AAR full open or not? |
|
|
| frankbonatelli wrote: |
| loganthecyclist wrote: |
| Looks pretty similar to mine after a full chill in the freezer. |
That's exactly what I needed to see! If yours has been running fine and it looks identical to mine I need to look elsewhere for this cold engine no idle issue.
Thanks for the visual clarity!! |
Happy to hear it helped!
Since you are having a temperature-dependent issue, the first thing I would check is the Temp II sensor and wiring. Since you have read the Digifant (I believe you meant Digijet, since Digifant does not have an AAR), you may already know to check the Temp II (coolant temperature) sensor. What you want to do is check the resistance between the terminals at the ECU multi-pin connector.
Do you have the Bentley repair manual? It will tell you how to do this as well as other fuel injection troubleshooting, much of which can be done conveniently using the ECU multi-pin connector.
Corroded electrical grounds on the LH side of the engine and sheet metal can cause all sorts of fuel injection related issues.
Sorry if this is all things you already know.
_________________
83.5 Vanagon Riviera WBX 2.2 "Brown Loaf"
87 Vanagon Syncro Tin Top WBX 2.1 "Bubbles" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
frankbonatelli
Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Alberta
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: AAR full open or not? |
|
|
| Quote: |
Happy to hear it helped!
Since you are having a temperature-dependent issue, the first thing I would check is the Temp II sensor and wiring. Since you have read the Digifant (I believe you meant Digijet, since Digifant does not have an AAR), you may already know to check the Temp II (coolant temperature) sensor. What you want to do is check the resistance between the terminals at the ECU multi-pin connector.
Do you have the Bentley repair manual? It will tell you how to do this as well as other fuel injection troubleshooting, much of which can be done conveniently using the ECU multi-pin connector.
Corroded electrical grounds on the LH side of the engine and sheet metal can cause all sorts of fuel injection related issues.
Sorry if this is all things you already know. |
All knowledge shared is appreciated, As I am at a loss for what next I am happy to test every and any ideas.
Currently in a two steps back stage of things, you know" one step forward two steps back" after i tested the volts as per the difijet bible ,11.59v was my results, the van has decided to not fire up at all. Where five mins before i could start the van with out even applying gas pedal pressure and walk to rear of van before its stumbled to a stall, it now will not start at all. Two steps back.
So thanks to all for their ideas.
At this point even wild hail Mary styled ideas will be accepted.[/quote]
_________________
============
---Vandalorian---
!!This is the way!!
============ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
frankbonatelli
Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Alberta
|
| Posted: Sat Jan 29, 2022 4:29 pm Post subject: Re: AAR full open or not? |
|
|
And one more question.
ae I've been at this for so long now I am concerned that maybe I have my power steering boost valve hoses on backwards.
The blue lines indicate current setup. Is it backwards[/img]
_________________
============
---Vandalorian---
!!This is the way!!
============ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
frankbonatelli
Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Alberta
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 8:31 pm Post subject: Re: AAR full open or not? |
|
|
So where am i
Ive run the full scope of tests in the Digijet & Digifant (I have the single throttle body switch) and every sensor test to preform in the "starts but wont idle cold " chapter. Straight forward tests are easy to follow. And here I sit still with this.
This is cold started and it is tuned well i don't even bother to sit in the seat just turn the key she lights right up! Walk to the rear and in a minuet she starts to lope. I'm at a lose so unless any one has ideas I'm just going to start replacing sensors regardless of the Digijet /Digifant results.
Link
Enjoy the show!
_________________
============
---Vandalorian---
!!This is the way!!
============ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
|
| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2022 11:27 pm Post subject: Re: AAR full open or not? |
|
|
The Digijet in flawed in its setup in that it cuts the fuel off when the revs barely get above base idle, like around 1100 rpm. It will then cut the fuel back on again once the revs drop. To add to this once the throttle body gets worn and the retard can on the distributor go bad it can be impossible to adjust your idle low enough so this will not happen. Throw in a few vacuum leaks and the problem is that much worse.
What you are seeing if very common and the easiest solution is to just adjust the throttle switch so that it is always open when the engine is near idle. You do not want to unplug the switch entirely as you will lose fuel enrichment at full throttle.
Someone has probably figured out how to adjust the rpm that the fuel cuts off at, this might be as simple are turning a pot in the ECU, I don't know. VW-Bosch went overboard in the other direction when they designed the Digifant system. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
frankbonatelli
Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Alberta
|
| Posted: Mon Jan 31, 2022 7:14 am Post subject: Re: AAR full open or not? |
|
|
| Wildthings wrote: |
What you are seeing if very common and the easiest solution is to just adjust the throttle switch so that it is always open when the engine is near idle. You do not want to unplug the switch entirely as you will lose fuel enrichment at full throttle. |
That is an interesting approach and seeing as I am at a lose I may as well try it. The oddness for me is the smooth running when it gets warmed up. takes about 10 mins or less and then the van runs smooth a silk.
Thanks for the imagineering idea.
_________________
============
---Vandalorian---
!!This is the way!!
============ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
