| Author |
Message |
BarryL 
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 14269
Location: Casa de Oro, California
|
 Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:21 am Post subject: Re: Vacuum Advance Distributor |
 |
|
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| Get an adjustable timing light and you can check how much advance there is at any RPM with just a stock pulley. |
Would someone explain how the modern "adjustable timing light" knows "how much advance there is" in layman-speak, please? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
glutamodo
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26323
Location: Douglas, WY
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Vacuum Advance Distributor |
|
|
Magic, of course! 
(actually, I've wondered that myself, as to how does the timing light now how many cylinders are on the engine?)
Hell, while I own a timing light with one of those advance dials on it, I much prefer using my old Craftsman light that has none of that stuff on it.
_________________
Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Who.Me?
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2014
Posts: 2211
Location: UK (South)
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:00 am Post subject: Re: Vacuum Advance Distributor |
|
|
Oh wow, I've just had a Doh! moment.
This thread made me grab the instructions for my timing light. I've had it for 30 years and I never knew it had an advance feature.  (Granted, I didn't use it for much of that time.)
I've just swapped a degree pulley for a stock VW pulley to try to cure an irritating oil leak and spent ages adding marks for my SVDA and emergency 009 centrifugal distributor. 
Barry, it delays firing the strobe so it highlights the TDC mark when your ignition is advanced by the number of degrees you want (e.g. at 40º).
I always thought the dial on mine was used in setting the dwell angle.
_________________
Andy
Looking for info on my truck's history. Are you from Campbell California or nearby. Do you recognise it? ... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=636786 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:15 am Post subject: Re: Vacuum Advance Distributor |
|
|
| glutamodo wrote: |
(actually, I've wondered that myself, as to how does the timing light now how many cylinders are on the engine?). |
Actually it does not know how many cylinders. Could be just one or a thousand cylinders. The timing light is only sensing the #1 cylinder spark plug cable.
As for how the timing light know how much advance. It must have someway to sense how many times a second the cylinder is firing and be able to divide that into usable units. Say if a cylinder fires every second, then for every 1/4 second the crankshaft must turn 90 degrees. Of course the ACVW engine moves much faster than this even at idle.
If you go to some of the electronic forums you could get a lot more educated explanation, but of course if one is not very familiar with electronics the explanation might not make much sense! 
_________________
In Stereo, Where Available!
Last edited by Eric&Barb on Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:20 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
glutamodo
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26323
Location: Douglas, WY
|
| Posted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 11:19 am Post subject: Re: Vacuum Advance Distributor |
|
|
With my background in Industrial Electronics, it's like I should have tried to figure that stuff out long ago. I never did, and that's probably because I've long used a chromium Craftsman timing light - at first the one owned by the shop I worked at, and then I bought one just like it for myself. Much later I bought another light with the dial on it, but I guess I just like to use that solid chrome Sears light instead.
_________________
Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BarryL
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 14269
Location: Casa de Oro, California
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:36 am Post subject: Re: Vacuum Advance Distributor |
|
|
| Who.Me? wrote: |
| Barry, it delays firing the strobe so it highlights the TDC mark when your ignition is advanced by the number of degrees you want (e.g. at 40º). |
If I wanted 32º total advance, the dial would get set at 32º advance, I'd turn the distributor with the engine running till I saw the strobe hit TDC, with my vacuum can fully evacuated? The contraption would figure out all the rest by itself like RPM, 4-stroke, 4-cylinder, etc. I get what pages 9 and 10 https://csr.innova.com/Content/Manual/Innova/Manual_3555.pdf?r=0.33828453056983954 say here but wouldn't total advance be from 0º be the same thing. Then after that it should match the static time within tolerance? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Who.Me?
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2014
Posts: 2211
Location: UK (South)
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:56 am Post subject: Re: Vacuum Advance Distributor |
|
|
| BarryL wrote: |
If I wanted 32º total advance, the dial would get set at 32º advance, I'd turn the distributor with the engine running till I saw the strobe hit TDC, with my vacuum can fully evacuated? |
That's how it reads to me. This is what my light's manual says (I finally R'dTFM  )
As for the rest:-
You need to know RPM so you can tell you're running the engine at the right revs to test the timing (e.g. it's at 3500RPM). That's why timing lights tend to incorporate a tachometer.
The number of cylinders and whether it's 4 or 2 stroke are basically irrelevant for my light as it's designed for the specific case of a '4 stroke engine with a conventional distributor rotating at half engine speed'. I guess you can buy lights that have adjustments for 2-stroke or wasted-spark ignitions etc., but mine just does the one case.
It'll be interesting to test the advance function against the pulley marks that I added, now I know what that does.
_________________
Andy
Looking for info on my truck's history. Are you from Campbell California or nearby. Do you recognise it? ... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=636786 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:06 am Post subject: Re: Vacuum Advance Distributor |
|
|
| BarryL wrote: |
| but wouldn't total advance be from 0º be the same thing. Then after that it should match the static time within tolerance? |
Sure it would in a perfect world. Problem is it is not a perfect world. Vacuum can might have a leak, mechanicals in the distributor can be rusted, gunked up with old grease/dirt, etc. all to conspire to not let it advance properly. So while not something we would check at each 3,000 mile tune up, it would be prudent anytime with an old but new to us distributor or say every 30,000 or 50,000 miles later just to make sure all is working.
It is a lot like gapping points, it will work, but much better after that to use a dwell meter to get it just right. Added bonus with dwell meter is then you use it for the many tune ups after installing the new or at least sanded down good points, one does not often need to regap the points as long as the dwell is within the proper range. Have gone many tens of thousands of mile with a set of points without having to touch them, all because they were still in the proper dwell range.
_________________
In Stereo, Where Available!
Last edited by Eric&Barb on Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:10 am Post subject: Re: Vacuum Advance Distributor |
|
|
That is neat! Never seen an old analog timing light with tach built into it!!
Have an old Sear's Engine Analyzer for tach and dwell, voltage, amps.
_________________
In Stereo, Where Available! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ryans65
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2016
Posts: 1263
Location: Yulee FL
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:34 am Post subject: Re: Vacuum Advance Distributor |
|
|
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
That is neat! Never seen an old analog timing light with tach built into it!!
Have an old Sear's Engine Analyzer for tach and dwell, voltage, amps. |
That is cool, now I must have one. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Who.Me?
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2014
Posts: 2211
Location: UK (South)
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:48 am Post subject: Re: Vacuum Advance Distributor |
|
|
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
| That is neat! Never seen an old analog timing light with tach built into it!! |
Do you mean mine? I bought it in the late 80s, used it for about a decade, then it was stashed away in my dad's garage.
It has two RPM ranges controlled by the switch. It does dwell (adjustable as well, I think?) but not Volts or Amps. That would be a useful feature for checking the battery and charging system.
_________________
Andy
Looking for info on my truck's history. Are you from Campbell California or nearby. Do you recognise it? ... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=636786 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Eric&Barb
Samba Member
Joined: September 19, 2004
Posts: 24764
Location: Olympia Wash Rinse & Repeat
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:25 pm Post subject: Re: Vacuum Advance Distributor |
|
|
| Who.Me? wrote: |
Do you mean mine? I bought it in the late 80s, used it for about a decade, then it was stashed away in my dad's garage.
It has two RPM ranges controlled by the switch. It does dwell (adjustable as well, I think?) but not Volts or Amps. That would be a useful feature for checking the battery and charging system. |
Yes, your timing light. What is the manufacture?
You could try Ebay here in the N. American market for the Sear's Engine Analyzer. Now that Ebay is shipping containers of stuff over seas hopefully the cost to get such is a lot less.
_________________
In Stereo, Where Available! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Who.Me?
Samba Member
Joined: July 14, 2014
Posts: 2211
Location: UK (South)
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 4:12 pm Post subject: Re: Vacuum Advance Distributor |
|
|
| Eric&Barb wrote: |
Yes, your timing light. What is the manufacture?
You could try Ebay here in the N. American market for the Sear's Engine Analyzer. Now that Ebay is shipping containers of stuff over seas hopefully the cost to get such is a lot less. |
Thanks for the tip.
My light is an Equus http://www.equus.com/. It was co-branded with Halfords who are an autoparts chain over here. Back then they were good for parts and tools, but now they mostly just sell bicycles, stereos and plastic tat.
_________________
Andy
Looking for info on my truck's history. Are you from Campbell California or nearby. Do you recognise it? ... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=636786 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: Vacuum Advance Distributor |
|
|
| I have the identical distributor to the one in the original post. Would it work on an engine with a very mild cam and 40mm Italian Webers? One carb does have a factory vacuum port. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
wcfvw69
Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 13389
Location: Arizona
|
| Posted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: Vacuum Advance Distributor |
|
|
| oprn wrote: |
| I have the identical distributor to the one in the original post. Would it work on an engine with a very mild cam and 40mm Italian Webers? One carb does have a factory vacuum port. |
Those 205K, M and T distributors typically need up to 80MM HG of vacuum. You need to "T" into that port on the Weber carb and measure how much vacuum it's providing. Is it manifold vacuum or ported needs to be distinguished too.
_________________
Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oprn
Samba Member
Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12730
Location: Western Canada
|
| Posted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:35 am Post subject: Re: Vacuum Advance Distributor |
|
|
Looking at the carb now the vacuum port is right at the throttle plate at the same height as the first idle progression port so it starts to draw vacuum at exactly the same time. It is fully uncovered the same time as the third idle progression port.
I don't have the engine in the car yet so testing the strength of the signal at that port will have to wait a bit.
Thanks Merv. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FJBLF
Samba Member
Joined: January 10, 2016
Posts: 213
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Vacuum Advance Distributor |
|
|
| tasb wrote: |
You need to remove the canister from the distributor in order to measure the throw accurately if it's off the engine. The 5.5 (32 degrees of advance) mm throw applies to:
113 905 205 M Beetle & Bus
113 905 205 T Beetle & Bus
111 905 205 T (non USA) Beetle, Bus?
111 905 205 AA (service dept replacement)
211 905 205 P (rare) Bus
211 905 205 AA (non USA service dept replacement)
4.5 mm throw ( 25 degrees of advance), may/may not have the star pattern on the canister:
113 905 205 K Beetle and Bus
131 905 205 Bus only
315 905 205 B (service dept replacement)
311 905 205 G type III |
Awesome list, but I could not find mine which is a 111-905-205 S / Bosch 0231 137 025, I currently have it calibrated at 32* @3000 RPM with my 30 PICT 1 on my single port 1600. it idles @15* @950 RPM I believe I'm doing things right, but I would really appreciate your comments.
_________________
1972 VW 181 SAFARI 1500 cc GRB Trans-axle |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:50 pm Post subject: Re: Vacuum Advance Distributor |
|
|
That sounds right. You could also time static at TDC. The reason your distributor doesn't show on the list is because the list is mostly for USA distributors that have come across the rebuilding bench. I've never seen or heard of your distributor but it falls between the 113 M and 211 N distributors (another non USA one I've not restored but at least I am aware of). In theory it has a 111 prefix as it was not installed on a deluxe import model. It gets confusing as here in the states distributors with the 111 prefix have a small saucer shaped canister that only delivers @ 25 degrees of advance= 40 horse.. I'm going to guess that you are not residing in the states since you have this distributor.
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse
Last edited by tasb on Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:08 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
glutamodo
The Android
Joined: July 13, 2004
Posts: 26323
Location: Douglas, WY
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 5:54 pm Post subject: Re: Vacuum Advance Distributor |
|
|
It's not listed on any of my charts because I can't find any data in any of my books except for what you already confirmed, a cross reference between the Bosch and VW numbers. That is in my Nov 73 and Jan 75 Bosch catalog cross reference charts, but no where in those books does it list anything else for those numbers.
So all you have to go by is the actual performance of the vacuum unit, which I think you have.
_________________
Andy T.
IMAGE NOTE: It has been noted that Chrome based browsers may have issues in displaying my vast image library, which use non-secure links and are on an FTP server. Images should still be viewable if the link is clicked though.
I do not know how to fix this. All I can say is it all works fine for me with what I use, Firefox. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
tasb
The Distributor Distributor
Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: Pentwater, Michigan
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 06, 2020 6:05 pm Post subject: Re: Vacuum Advance Distributor |
|
|
| Who.Me? wrote: |
Oh wow, I've just had a Doh! moment.
This thread made me grab the instructions for my timing light. I've had it for 30 years and I never knew it had an advance feature. (Granted, I didn't use it for much of that time.)
I've just swapped a degree pulley for a stock VW pulley to try to cure an irritating oil leak and spent ages adding marks for my SVDA and emergency 009 centrifugal distributor.
Barry, it delays firing the strobe so it highlights the TDC mark when your ignition is advanced by the number of degrees you want (e.g. at 40º).
I always thought the dial on mine was used in setting the dwell angle. |
I'm surprised a 30 year old timing light has an advance feature. I have one of them and like Andy, I still prefer my old non adjustable light. The dial is kinda loose, wonky and I don't trust it's accuracy.
_________________
Roads Scholar &
1957 Kombi low mileage 36 hp governor equipped M 178 Slow Drag Winner 2014, 2015, 2018
1965 hardtop Deluxe Microbus owned since 1990 M 620 factory 12 v 1500cc
1961 (October)Single Cab- Road Trip Workhorse |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
