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johnbyrdgates
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Joined: August 24, 2011
Posts: 102
Location: Rockport, MA
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 Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 9:21 am Post subject: 944 Axle Assemblies |
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Has anyone tried the 944 assembled axels from Van Cafe yet? I just ordered a set and wonder if anyone has done the install.
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1987 2.1L 2WD Full Camper Kerouac |
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johnbyrdgates
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2011
Posts: 102
Location: Rockport, MA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:48 am Post subject: Re: 944 Axle Assemblies |
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Well. I have. The axel assemblies arrived the other day and they are a perfect fit for my vanagon. The shafts on my originals were rusted and gnarly looking, and I was looking to upgrade for the coming installation of my Vanistan rebuild.
The new axel assemblies are less expensive than oem ones and the shafts are actually a little bit larger in diameter than my originals. I would definitely recommend them if you want to replace your whole assemblies rather than rebuild.
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1987 2.1L 2WD Full Camper Kerouac |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5390
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:55 am Post subject: Re: 944 Axle Assemblies |
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The problem is that the CVs that come with the complete 944 axle assemblies are not the same as the 944 CV kits that you buy individually. The quality of the CVs that come with the complete axles is very, very poor. There are some that seem to last okay, but most a junk within a few thousand miles.
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"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
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newfisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2012
Posts: 1764
Location: The wet spot--Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:15 am Post subject: Re: 944 Axle Assemblies |
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| johnbyrdgates wrote: |
Well. I have. The axel assemblies arrived the other day and they are a perfect fit for my vanagon. The shafts on my originals were rusted and gnarly looking, and I was looking to upgrade for the coming installation of my Vanistan rebuild.
The new axel assemblies are less expensive than oem ones and the shafts are actually a little bit larger in diameter than my originals. I would definitely recommend them if you want to replace your whole assemblies rather than rebuild. |
If you dont keep your oem shafts and hardware, I and a few others would purchase them. |
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johnbyrdgates
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2011
Posts: 102
Location: Rockport, MA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:28 am Post subject: Re: 944 Axle Assemblies |
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Hey, Chris. Woulda kind of liked to hear that 10 days ago...
Newfisher, I'm now thinking I might need to hang on to them for awhile.
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1987 2.1L 2WD Full Camper Kerouac |
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newfisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2012
Posts: 1764
Location: The wet spot--Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: 944 Axle Assemblies |
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| johnbyrdgates wrote: |
Hey, Chris. Woulda kind of liked to hear that 10 days ago...
Newfisher, I'm now thinking I might need to hang on to them for awhile. |
Yes, the best advise: Install the assemblies you have ordered. Take your oem shafts apart and clean everything. Keep all of th 12 point bolts, serated lock washers and tabs. Buy the GOOD 944s from T3 and the Parker boots with the expensive grease and reassemble them onto the OE shafts and hardware. Put these assemblies on your van.
Stop by the local RV supply and grab an 18" double capped 5" crapper pipe and keep one, give one to a buddy that you travel or camp with. Slip one of the cheapo 944 assemlies, gloves, rags etc into the crapper pipe and mount it under the van ( they have 4 mounting tabs) on each van. |
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johnbyrdgates
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2011
Posts: 102
Location: Rockport, MA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:33 pm Post subject: Re: 944 Axle Assemblies |
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Thanks, newfsher. The 944s are that bad, eh?
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1987 2.1L 2WD Full Camper Kerouac
Last edited by johnbyrdgates on Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jon_slider
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: 944 Axle Assemblies |
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would I buy the 944 axle assembly from Van Cafe.. Yes if the CVs are Lobros and Not Empis, and double yes if its a true 944 axle! 
| newfisher wrote: |
| crapper pipe |
great Tip for spare axle storage!
| johnbyrdgates wrote: |
| Thanks, newfsher. The 944s are that bad, eh? |
no, dont misunderstand, hes talking about a good way to carry a spare axle..
I think you did good by buying the axle assemblies.. you saved money, gained convenience (preassembled), everybody wins
unless there is more new info I dont yet have, as I have not verified whether the VC halfshaft assembly does in fact use a cheaper CV, a chinese one, instead of euro made
class begins below, I look forward to the lecture:
| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
| The problem is that the CVs that come with the complete 944 axle assemblies are not the same as the 944 CV kits that you buy individually. The quality of the CVs that come with the complete axles is very, very poor. There are some that seem to last okay, but most a junk within a few thousand miles. |
lets clarify which specific CV you are talking about.. Lobro? Empi?
are you talking specifically about the axle assemby and individual CV van cafe sells now?
back in 2012, I tried a number of different axle and CV options. The final combo I felt was best was a Porsche axle sourced by tdwesty, who introduced me to the 944 CV option, with the Lobro joints from Van Cafe.
here is the thread, with pics
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=517688&start=0
"I found the Empi Type 2 Offroad CV's (rated for 25 degree max angle) too loose and noisy for my taste, and they got looser and pitted after a trip to Death Valley, so I had the CV's replaced with Lobro Type 4 cv's (Porsche 944), then the empi axle broke (the CV's and axles were not assembled correctly, so I then went to Porsche 944 axles): "
regarding 944 articulation, in a nutshell, the balls are smaller, and the max angle is higher, iirc 23 instead of 18 degrees for the stock joint.
that all sounds good, but, in actual real life, our vans do not droop past 18 degrees, even with fox shocks
sooo, why use a 944 joint, if the stock joint does not have an articulation problem? well, because they cost less, work well, and are a great option?
the accusation that the 944 joint is smaller and weaker, may or may not have any real bearing either though
because what breaks CV joints, is torn boots that let in mud, water, and grit, not the maximum droop angle the CV joint is rated for..
CV joints break from abuse, such as turning on high traction surfaces while locked, but they dont just spontaneously break, driving down the road. At worst, CVs with poor metalurgy (empi) and or heat treatment will pit, and or get noisy over time.. this gives ample warning to swap in a spare and rebuild or replace the clacking one..
It is certainly true that I was not happy with the Empi offroad clearanced 944 CVs, they were loose, noisy, and pitted early, but that is not afaik, the same as what Van Cafe sells, is it?
oh, and, I suggest you rebuild one of your stock axles with Lobro CVs, as a spare
I would run the ones you bought, knowing if something goes bad, you have a replacement ready
that way we will all learn if your 944 assemblies work or not
disclaimer, Ive not ready of any reports from people that have used the VC half shaft, if they are out there, and Chris knows about it, I defer to his broader knowledge.. I certainly respect his opinions and experience..
one more spare axle option:
Autozone.. they make a Duralast w lifetime warranty.. they are good enough to work as a spare if one or your expensive axles needs servicing
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Last edited by Jon_slider on Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Christopher Schimke
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2005
Posts: 5390
Location: PNW
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:55 pm Post subject: Re: 944 Axle Assemblies |
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| Quote: |
| lets clarify which specific CV you are talking about.. Lobro? Empi? |
Lobro! The joints that come on the "944" axle assemblies are Lobro/GKN, but they are not the same Lobro/GKN joints that come in the individual kits.
And no, the axles are not genuine Porsche axles. They are aftermarket.
| Quote: |
| are you talking specifically about the axle assemby and individual CV van cafe sells now? |
No, just the "944" axle assembly, not the individual 944 CV kits.
| Quote: |
regarding 944 articulation, in a nutshell, the balls are smaller, and the max angle is higher, iirc 23 instead of 18 degrees for the stock joint.
that all sounds good, but, in actual real life, our vans do not droop past 18 degrees, even with fox shocks
sooo, why use a 944 joint, if the stock joint does not have an articulation problem? |
The balls of the 944 CVs ride in a better location to help reduce accelerated wear when running at higher angles (than stock) instead of being maxed out at ride height.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)
*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected] |
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johnbyrdgates
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2011
Posts: 102
Location: Rockport, MA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: 944 Axle Assemblies |
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The assemblies I bought are supposedly GKN/Lobro-fitted 944 axels. I didn't even look at the brand during installation. Where is the stamp/identifying mark located. I'll crawl under and look.
P.S. I've been looking on all the sites for replacement Axel assemblies and until recently Van Cafe didn't offer these, so I guess they're kind of a new discovery for them. Here is VC's description:
Description
Porsche 944 rear complete axle. These axle will fit all manual transmission Vanagons 80 thru 91. For years we have been pleading with our suppliers to have GKN/Lobro go back into production on the original German rear axle, but the answer to our prayers was right under our noses. The Porsche 944 complete axle is the exact same length as the Vanagon axle. The 944 CV joint uses marginally smaller balls that the stock Vanagon joint and thus allows for more articulation. This is a real bonus if your van has been lifted. If you need bolts to install these axles please click here.
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Jon_slider
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: 944 Axle Assemblies |
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| Christopher Schimke wrote: |
Lobro! The joints that come on the "944" axle assemblies are Lobro/GKN, but they are not the same Lobro/GKN joints that come in the individual kits.
And no, the axles are not genuine Porsche axles. They are aftermarket.
...
The balls of the 944 CVs ride in a better location to help reduce accelerated wear when running at higher angles (than stock) instead of being maxed out at ride height. |
thank you for the education!
that also makes sense about the location of the balls.. all good info
so, for the OP who now already has the axle assembly we have disrespected so thoroughly after the fact
where does he go from here?
some options
1. Try them anyway?
2. Carry a good rebuilt stock spare?
3. Bail out and start over by rebuilding the existing axles (one at a time, while running an Autozone axle to keep the van on the road?)
4. Carry a cheap Autozone spare? (in a crapper pipe? lol)
lowest cost, with least labor is option 1 with choice 4
PS, I just noted the OP is in a 2WD with a stock motor.. the strength of the axle is less of an issue than in a Lifted Syncro that goes offroad with a stronger than stock motor. Im more inclined to suggest just running the half shafts he bough, and rely on warranty if he manages to break one in a 2wd stock van.
| johnbyrdgates wrote: |
| This is a real bonus if your van has been lifted. |
is your van lifted btw
do you go "romping" offroad?
maybe
Don't Worry, Be Happy?
youre getting feedback from a bunch of rowdy redneck syncro bashers.. not a plain vanilla pavement pounder, like you? 
I like pics btw, share your ride!
for my entertainment
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newfisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2012
Posts: 1764
Location: The wet spot--Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: 944 Axle Assemblies |
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Find out if they are Empi or Empi quality axles. If they are the cheaper Lobro 944 cv's ( there are both cheap and the good ones) then I would run them until I rebuilt the known good German axles/hardware/944 cvs and parker boots from T3 as mentioned and keep these as spares.
OP has a stock motor.
I have a 2.5 franken Suby with lift , larger tires and splatter good Lobro's like fist full of blisters. I have sheared sets of chineese 6 point bolts just letting out the clutch on a slight incline. I am fully aware and versed in ditch repair and cv axle replacement. The crapper pipe has saved several hours waiting for AAA on camp trips. I was close to selling the van until I took John Slider's threads advise and sought Christopher's parts at T3. I sourced some German axles, german12 point bolts from a used low mile totalled van and new serated washers. I have since beat them to death to try and make them fail before heading out on long trips or droop axle off road binding adventures and they are rock stars. The crapper tube axle is a German one with german hardware and the good Lobros with parker boots. I havent had to use it, but have sold it twice and loaned it once to get people home. |
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Pcforno
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Joined: October 14, 2014
Posts: 575
Location: Santa Fe, nm
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: 944 Axle Assemblies |
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| Or if you like purdy axles and have expensive tastes, get some Burley 930s |
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newfisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2012
Posts: 1764
Location: The wet spot--Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: 944 Axle Assemblies |
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[quote="Jon_sliderI like pics btw, share your ride!
for my entertainment
[/quote]
^^^^^^ Thats not an Outback?!!  |
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Jon_slider
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: 944 Axle Assemblies |
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| newfisher wrote: |
| ^^^^^^ Thats not an Outback?!! |
LoL! thats what betty looked like around 2011.. I cant say I helped her age gracefully, I do miss her, shes been adopted and is still running, with a new tranny
here she was in 2014, with Fox Shocks and 31" BFGs (for my nostalgic entertainment)
in fact, the new owner called me recently, asking if he should buy 930's, I said no.. His mechanic had told him to get rid of the 944 Lobro CVs.. and to go back to stock joints.. I did not disagree, though I was surprised they thought the joints were bad.
I suspect they were reacting to some axle tapping, that Syncro Jael has documented can be eliminated with boot adjustments.. but, he had already bought the new joints, so I blessed the union
my outback also takes "special" original axles, the non OEM replacements tend to vibrate at idle:
Big Sur, the good old days (everything you see is now close to the public, anyone without a local ID, due to the last fire and the record breaking rains that followed, creating mudslides and even a fallen bridge) Access roads from every direction are now closed:
the kitchen is a little different than the Westy
sunset and dawn in Big Sur
wait, what were we talking about?
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johnbyrdgates
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2011
Posts: 102
Location: Rockport, MA
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: 944 Axle Assemblies |
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Jon slider:
Thanks for your responses and for sharing your perspective! I definitely do not go off roading with my van. That's what my 1953 M 37 is for.
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1987 2.1L 2WD Full Camper Kerouac
Last edited by johnbyrdgates on Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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newfisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2012
Posts: 1764
Location: The wet spot--Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: 944 Axle Assemblies |
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31 BFG's and stock axles? I would think the 944's and limiting straps in the rear would be a better option for the lift/angle
Oh yes Big Sur! Thanks for the pic's. Glad you are still getting out in the Suby |
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Jon_slider
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2007
Posts: 5091
Location: Santa Cruz, Crowdifornia
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: 944 Axle Assemblies |
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| newfisher wrote: |
| 31 BFG's and stock axles? I would think the 944's and limiting straps in the rear would be a better option for the lift/angle |
correct, no 930s for me, I wanted the option to be rescued by someone with a stock spare on board
I did not need limiting straps with the Fox, other shocks do
I did upgrade to a chrome molly stock size axle, and broke it when it got reversed, moved from driver side to passenger side, by an underinformed mechanic..
after that I went to a genuine Porsche axle.. here they are:
I consider the porsche stronger than stock, the torsional chrome molly empi inferior, and I would not hesitate to use a stock axle again
Ive only broken the empi
it broke at the groove unnamed vendor cut into the empi to install a retaining ring.. all bad science imo
otoh, check out the Porsche retaining ring.. its permanently installed on a portion of the shaft that is machined to fit.. much less likely to snap at that point, also less room for the axle to slide through the CV star and tap on flanges.. I really like the Porsche axle
tdwesty actually pulled a set for me from a Yard. He marked them left and right so we would not flip them. Although they are not torsional, and should survive that kind of abuse.. Stock axles survive flipping too.. its the torsional ones, including the 930 version, that take a set and twist in one direction, and should not be flipped..
hope the op doesnt mind the hijack
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newfisher
Samba Member
Joined: January 05, 2012
Posts: 1764
Location: The wet spot--Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: 944 Axle Assemblies |
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All great info!
I have broken Empi as well and am a firm believer in stock oem German axles. |
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bsrad
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Joined: April 17, 2012
Posts: 256
Location: Coeur d’Alene, Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: 944 Axle Assemblies |
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So I have been wanting to upgrade to the 944s and I will end up purchasing just the new CV kits separately and not the full axle assembly. But the trouble I am having is where to purchase just the axles shafts. I broke one in Southern Utah a few weeks ago and would like to get two news ones to start fresh with the 944 CVs anyway.
Is it possible to source new oem 944 or vanagon axles anywhere?
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Bill
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1987 Syncro Westy
1967 OG Single Cab
1976 FJ40 |
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