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"Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie.
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KollynnBlackpaw
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:00 pm    Post subject: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. Reply with quote

Heya everyone! This is Blue, my "running" 1972 Square. He's got quite a few problems, rust, and is generally a pain. He leaks into the passenger's floor when it rains, his fender is rusty, and boatloads of problems I'll list below. But he's mine and I love him.

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I'm still really quite new to automotive mechanics and wanted to start with a bug, which I did but he's a pretty big project to do alone in the rain. So I went a little smaller for something that drives, stops, and wasn't awful on the pocket.

I bought him around November and December, and it's been raining and snowing since. Thanks, Oregon.

Issues!

- Rain leaks to the front passenger floor, and into driver's side door map pocket.
- Badly rusted rear passenger floor.
- Seats are torn to shreds.
- Leaks oil a bit worse than "marking his territory."
- Brakes ran out of fluid, now needs bled.
- Rusty hood.
- Needs oil change.
- Rusted fender.
- Will probably need new tires sooner than later.
~ Parking brake originally didn't work, was an easy fix.
~ Had no plates.
~ Cylinder missfires or doesn't at all. Most likely the nasty spark plugs.
~ Crappy dash pad, will probably just do a delete.
~ Battery decided to die.

And some other minor misc stuff. But all around, he sorta kinda works! The lights and whatnot all work, the gas pedal, clutch and shifting... just not the brakes.



Now, here in March, I've finally got him a parts car. "Blueberry" because of his uniuqe, though poorly done, paint job. It's a darker blue with somewhat of a purple shading to it, similar to a blueberry or blue ink.

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He's come with an Empi trigger shifter, dual Weber carb, some other Empi thing which I have no idea what it is, antenna, at least ONE decent seat, what seems like brand new back seat, Empi window cranks, racing roller pedal, eyebrows, and a cooler.


Parts that will be taken

*EMPI shifter -> DONE
*EMPI (Whatever it is)
*EMPI window cranks
*Weber carb
*Right front fender -> Currently off.
*Hood -> DONE
*Possibly trading wheels with my bug
*Antenna probably
*Front passenger seat
*Rear seat
*Trading hubcaps, headlight trim, and taking eyebrows -> DONE
*Trading door panels
*Maybe the roller pedal, don't know how I feel about it
*Clean out that nasty cooler.
*Probably more



As you can see I plan to do quite a lot. I also have some other parts I'd like to take depending on the ability to use them.

After I've got what I need or think I'll need, I'll be parting him out or selling him outright.

Questions

Can I put the '70 pop out windows in a '72?

Is it possible to use the steering wheel in the '72, and if not is there anywhere that makes repro early wheels to use in a late model?

How was your day?

Could the rear seat be put in a '70 bug, or are they different?

How do I take out the headlight wiring from the front fender? Do I have to snip it to take the fender off?




Thank you all so much for the help and I plan to post whenever something new happens.


Photos of the work so far done:
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- Regards,
Kollynn.
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sharmstr
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:07 am    Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. Reply with quote

Here's a thread on adding popouts to a 72 https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6918496
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KollynnBlackpaw
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:16 pm    Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. Reply with quote

sharmstr wrote:
Here's a thread on adding popouts to a 72 https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6918496

Thank you! Now I just need to get the horribly applied tint off.
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KollynnBlackpaw
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:33 pm    Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. Reply with quote

Does anyone know if I can use the '70 steering wheel? It fits, though I'd have to cut down the wiper selector arm. I also guess I won't have a horn, but it's not like in my mother's 30 years of driving she's ever needed it. I'll keep the standard wheel with the car, too, in case I'm stranded or something.

As for the wiper, could I also instead maybe just put the dash button style in from the 70, replacing the arm entirely?
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:00 am    Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. Reply with quote

KollynnBlackpaw wrote:
Does anyone know if I can use the '70 steering wheel? It fits, though I'd have to cut down the wiper selector arm. I also guess I won't have a horn, but it's not like in my mother's 30 years of driving she's ever needed it. I'll keep the standard wheel with the car, too, in case I'm stranded or something.

As for the wiper, could I also instead maybe just put the dash button style in from the 70, replacing the arm entirely?


You've found out why you can't use the 70 steering wheel, the wiper switch interferes. To use the 70 switch, you'll also need the 70 wiper harness and switch, as the 72 wiring is different where it plugs into the base of the column head. It might be easier to just cut off the wiper arm on the 72 column, and get the brass horn ring off the bottom of the steering wheel, and see if it'll fit on the 70 wheel. If it doesn't you would have to buy a 71 part instead (the ring). I'd try that route, as all of the wiring is in place for the horn to work.

Dave Pallo cut his arm down some, and made an off set bracket to attach the cut off part so he could use the early steering wheel with the 72 column. His is the first that I've seen done like that, so it does work. Cool
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71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
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dont the youthinasisa make all our vw stuff? Shocked
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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KollynnBlackpaw
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:09 am    Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
KollynnBlackpaw wrote:
Does anyone know if I can use the '70 steering wheel? It fits, though I'd have to cut down the wiper selector arm. I also guess I won't have a horn, but it's not like in my mother's 30 years of driving she's ever needed it. I'll keep the standard wheel with the car, too, in case I'm stranded or something.

As for the wiper, could I also instead maybe just put the dash button style in from the 70, replacing the arm entirely?


You've found out why you can't use the 70 steering wheel, the wiper switch interferes. To use the 70 switch, you'll also need the 70 wiper harness and switch, as the 72 wiring is different where it plugs into the base of the column head. It might be easier to just cut off the wiper arm on the 72 column, and get the brass horn ring off the bottom of the steering wheel, and see if it'll fit on the 70 wheel. If it doesn't you would have to buy a 71 part instead (the ring). I'd try that route, as all of the wiring is in place for the horn to work.

Dave Pallo cut his arm down some, and made an off set bracket to attach the cut off part so he could use the early steering wheel with the 72 column. His is the first that I've seen done like that, so it does work. Cool



Yeah, and thank you for the great info! I'm going to see today if my neighbor wouldn't mind chopping and welding it nicely for me, as he's been out welding a lot lately. Maybe see if he would teach me a little, too.

So I can in fact have a working horn if I get a 71 ring? I do need a replacement horn bar anyways. Are there maybe any aftermarkets, or know anyone selling one? Right now I can deal without one since it will be a while until he's really on the road.
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:02 am    Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. Reply with quote

KollynnBlackpaw wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:
KollynnBlackpaw wrote:
Does anyone know if I can use the '70 steering wheel? It fits, though I'd have to cut down the wiper selector arm. I also guess I won't have a horn, but it's not like in my mother's 30 years of driving she's ever needed it. I'll keep the standard wheel with the car, too, in case I'm stranded or something.

As for the wiper, could I also instead maybe just put the dash button style in from the 70, replacing the arm entirely?


You've found out why you can't use the 70 steering wheel, the wiper switch interferes. To use the 70 switch, you'll also need the 70 wiper harness and switch, as the 72 wiring is different where it plugs into the base of the column head. It might be easier to just cut off the wiper arm on the 72 column, and get the brass horn ring off the bottom of the steering wheel, and see if it'll fit on the 70 wheel. If it doesn't you would have to buy a 71 part instead (the ring). I'd try that route, as all of the wiring is in place for the horn to work.

Dave Pallo cut his arm down some, and made an off set bracket to attach the cut off part so he could use the early steering wheel with the 72 column. His is the first that I've seen done like that, so it does work. Cool



Yeah, and thank you for the great info! I'm going to see today if my neighbor wouldn't mind chopping and welding it nicely for me, as he's been out welding a lot lately. Maybe see if he would teach me a little, too.

So I can in fact have a working horn if I get a 71 ring? I do need a replacement horn bar anyways. Are there maybe any aftermarkets, or know anyone selling one? Right now I can deal without one since it will be a while until he's really on the road.


I'd contact Dave Pallo and see how much of an offset is needed for it to be used with the earlier steering wheel. He set his up as a "bolt on".
I'd try the ring off the bottom of the 72 wheel (see if it fits on the 70), before I bought anything. It's only 3 screws that hold it on.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
mark tucker wrote:
dont the youthinasisa make all our vw stuff? Shocked
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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KollynnBlackpaw
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:36 pm    Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:


I'd contact Dave Pallo and see how much of an offset is needed for it to be used with the earlier steering wheel. He set his up as a "bolt on".
I'd try the ring off the bottom of the 72 wheel (see if it fits on the 70), before I bought anything. It's only 3 screws that hold it on.


Unfortunately they're vastly different. The 72 is actually rivetted in, too. I'll probably just see if anyone has a whole '71 wheel, as this one is sorta beat up and doesn't have the bar or button.
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KollynnBlackpaw
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:09 am    Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. Reply with quote

So what might be the issue of having a gas smell in the oil? I checked the pump and it doesn't seem leaky, but I may have missed something.
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Sqrbckguy38
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:17 am    Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. Reply with quote

Wow, what a read. So I have a 71 fasty that I won't be using much from the column, so I'll find out what is good if you know exactly what you need. I like your car so far, all these new cars popping up makes me really want to get at least one of mine running. Did you use those carbs on your car? Fuel in oil usually means one of a few things.
1: Bad rings, so your engine is missing and fuel gets mixed in.
2: They are running horribly rich, or leasing fuel into a vacuum port.
That may not always be accurate, but I'm currently goofing off with a 74 super beetle that had that problem.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:03 am    Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. Reply with quote

Be best to replace the whole '72 steering column & wheel with the early model steering column & wheel w/chrome horn bar. If you still have the stock fuel injection fuel pump on your car it is probably too strong for carburetors. Fuel injection needs 30 lbs but carburetors only need 3 lbs fuel pressure. You have to test the fuel pressure to see if that could be forcing fuel into your oil sump.
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two 57 oval ragtops sold
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KollynnBlackpaw
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 2:39 pm    Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. Reply with quote

Sqrbckguy38 wrote:
Wow, what a read. So I have a 71 fasty that I won't be using much from the column, so I'll find out what is good if you know exactly what you need. I like your car so far, all these new cars popping up makes me really want to get at least one of mine running. Did you use those carbs on your car? Fuel in oil usually means one of a few things.
1: Bad rings, so your engine is missing and fuel gets mixed in.
2: They are running horribly rich, or leasing fuel into a vacuum port.
That may not always be accurate, but I'm currently goofing off with a 74 super beetle that had that problem.



Thank you! I'll be throwing the carbs in once I've got some other stuff done, but it came with the parts car. I'll be sure to look into those today since it's finally somewhat nice out and I don't work.

Mike, below, said I should replace the whole column, but that seems like way more work than I'm qualified for.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:39 pm    Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. Reply with quote

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Blue's engine, in case anyone was wondering. You can see the disconnected spark plug wiring, which was nasty. You can also see the... "messy" wiring, to say the least.

He was very obviously not the best cared for Square by his previous owner(s) and is a little rough inside. Still need to get the "how to rebuild your engine" book this next paycheque.

Also I do believe the "other" Empi bit on Blueberry is an oil breather box, looking at it.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:33 am    Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. Reply with quote

Fuel injected engines will get fuel pumped into the oil if the fuel return line on the passenger side gets plugged up. Test your fuel pressure on the plugged test port between your 3-4 or 1-2 injector pairs. I rigged up a 100 lb water pressure gauge from Home Depot to test/adjust my fuel pressure. Get it running & keep the fuel injection on it! The whole steering column is only about 18" long and does not include the steering shaft etc going through the firewall. It is relatively easy to change them.
P.S. You do have the brown VOLKSWAGEN SERVICE MANUAL Type 3 1968-1973 from Bentley Publishers to guide you, as it is our Bible! Twisted Evil
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two 57 oval ragtops sold
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KollynnBlackpaw
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:56 pm    Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. Reply with quote

Mike Fisher wrote:
Fuel injected engines will get fuel pumped into the oil if the fuel return line on the passenger side gets plugged up. Test your fuel pressure on the plugged test port between your 3-4 or 1-2 injector pairs. I rigged up a 100 lb water pressure gauge from Home Depot to test/adjust my fuel pressure. Get it running & keep the fuel injection on it! The whole steering column is only about 18" long and does not include the steering shaft etc going through the firewall. It is relatively easy to change them.
P.S. You do have the brown VOLKSWAGEN SERVICE MANUAL Type 3 1968-1973 from Bentley Publishers to guide you, as it is our Bible! Twisted Evil


Alright, I'll be sure to do that then. I'll see if we have a guage or pick one up tonight. You gotta figure, when I say newbie I mean complete newbie. Laughing

As for the steering wheel, I suppose in that case I can. I'll rip out Berry's and put it in the garage, but as of right now I need to be able to drive poor ol Blue. And no, I've been meaning to get the manual, but money comes in slow from my work during winters.

If I'm keeping the FI, can the Webers (actually seem to be Empi, was told they're Weber) go on my '70 Autostick Type 1 engine? I've still been meaning to get around to that.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. Reply with quote

Mike Fisher wrote:
The whole steering column is only about 18" long and does not include the steering shaft etc going through the firewall. It is relatively easy to change them.


Mike, swapping out a 72 column for a 70 column is a lot harder than you think. First is all of the wiring changes that need to happen (72 uses a combo wiper and turn signal switch), including the fact that 72's don't use a wire for the horn down the steering shaft to the steering box.
I'm pretty good with doing changes (pretty decent with electrical too), and it's one I don't think I'd attempt. But then you live semi nearby, maybe you can give him some first hand help on the swap. Flat out it's a bunch of work. Ask yur buddy George (Tram), and I can tell you what he'd say (leave it alone if it's working, and only fix what's not). And this is especially true if you're a novice to type 3s, or wiring, as they have some particular parts that aren't used in all VWs. OP, this is just a heads up.
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
mark tucker wrote:
dont the youthinasisa make all our vw stuff? Shocked
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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KollynnBlackpaw
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:30 pm    Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:
Mike Fisher wrote:
The whole steering column is only about 18" long and does not include the steering shaft etc going through the firewall. It is relatively easy to change them.


Mike, swapping out a 72 column for a 70 column is a lot harder than you think. First is all of the wiring changes that need to happen (72 uses a combo wiper and turn signal switch), including the fact that 72's don't use a wire for the horn down the steering shaft to the steering box.
I'm pretty good with doing changes (pretty decent with electrical too), and it's one I don't think I'd attempt. But then you live semi nearby, maybe you can give him some first hand help on the swap. Flat out it's a bunch of work. Ask yur buddy George (Tram), and I can tell you what he'd say (leave it alone if it's working, and only fix what's not). And this is especially true if you're a novice to type 3s, or wiring, as they have some particular parts that aren't used in all VWs. OP, this is just a heads up.


Yeah, I had went out and worked and looked around and it looked like far too much for me. I'll just stick with finding the 71 wheel and throwing it on there after I get the wiper switch cut down. I'll be visiting Mike one day soon when I've got the money for parts I don't have, like the wheel.
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:51 pm    Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. Reply with quote

Okay, maybe we better forget about steering wheels for now and worry about getting it running good with the fuel injection. Unhook the front/rear rubber fuel lines on the metal line and blow air front to back to see that it is not getting plugged up. You will have to change the oil if it has fuel in it, but the engine only holds 2.5 quarts so it's not too expensive. The transmission should also be checked/filled through the 17mm allen head socket on the side. Empi makes the special 17mm socket to check/fill the transmission. Order a good used brown 68-73 Type 3 Bentley Manual on Amazon.com It will show you where the fuel pressure regulator/adjustment etc is and a million other things you will need to know/fix to make/keep it a dependable daily driver. If you still have any of the original woven cloth covered fuel hoses they will spring pinhole leaks and are dangerous. Standard Gates/Goodyear etc reinforced rubber 5/16" fuel hose is fine to replace the original but you might also need a little bigger hose clamps. Your fuel pressure should be around 28-30 lbs when it is running.
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66 sunroof,67,70,71,71,71AT,72,72AT,73 Parts
two 57 oval ragtops sold
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:05 am    Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. Reply with quote

Mike Fisher wrote:
Okay, maybe we better forget about steering wheels for now and worry about getting it running good with the fuel injection. Unhook the front/rear rubber fuel lines on the metal line and blow air front to back to see that it is not getting plugged up. You will have to change the oil if it has fuel in it, but the engine only holds 2.5 quarts so it's not too expensive. The transmission should also be checked/filled through the 17mm allen head socket on the side. Empi makes the special 17mm socket to check/fill the transmission. Order a good used brown 68-73 Type 3 Bentley Manual on Amazon.com It will show you where the fuel pressure regulator/adjustment etc is and a million other things you will need to know/fix to make/keep it a dependable daily driver. If you still have any of the original woven cloth covered fuel hoses they will spring pinhole leaks and are dangerous. Standard Gates/Goodyear etc reinforced rubber 5/16" fuel hose is fine to replace the original but you might also need a little bigger hose clamps. Your fuel pressure should be around 28-30 lbs when it is running.



Wow! Thank you again, Mike. More info and more detailed like this is the best to learn off for me. I've just ordered the Bentley manual earlier today and will be awaiting it within the next week/ week and a half. In the mean time I'll get working on this to the best of my abilities, and trying to get the old fender off. The last person who changed the lights was the kind of person who only knows a screw is in when it's stripped. Mad

I've also ordered "How to rebuild your Volkswagen air-cooled engine" for when the time comes that I'm familiar and capable of doing it on my own.
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:52 am    Post subject: Re: "Blue" '72 Square build from a newbie. Reply with quote

KollynnBlackpaw wrote:
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Blue's engine, in case anyone was wondering.


Have you had this engine running yet? Even on starting fluid? Does the distributor have a connection for the trigger points? Just asking because it looks like an 009 distributor from the pic above.
Does the distributor have a vacuum advance can on the side of it (should be a big double vacuum unit about the size of a mini donut)? If there's no 3 wire black plug in the side of the distributor, that engine will NEVER run on Fuel Injection, as it needs those contacts to trigger the injectors.
I hope this helps.
_________________
Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
mark tucker wrote:
dont the youthinasisa make all our vw stuff? Shocked
Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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